KQo improves...

martybonus · #1 03-14-2007, 01:04 PM

This hand was *directly* after the A9s hand I posted.

same villain, same table. Only now I know villain sometimes overvalues his hands on the river.

Party Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

flop donk was no good, i should have let him do the betting for me. In fact, I might have released this hand right here, mighn't I? what is villain 3banging PF with that I have beat here? AQs only really...
In retrospect this was a pretty easy call-down or fold,huh?

Turn: (5.70 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

obviously now I'm stuck calling one bet here. But I'm stoked about villains line here! raise flop, check turn! Almost as good as my flop donk :P

River: (5.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

2 flushes in 2 consecutive hands. niiiice. now i know for SURE I'm due for a downswing :P
Final Pot: 13.70 BB

fretelöo · #2 03-14-2007, 02:09 PM

Well, this one is a bit screwed, I think.

Flop donk is bad, indeed. To anser your question, he is very well raising you with JJ or QQ too. However, AK, KK, AA are indeed a big portion of his range. Since he'll have you crushed more often than not, I'd prefer a cheap line. I just call down. You can't fold though because he'd pretty much always bet here with QQ or JJ.
His turn check is indeed a bit weired. QQ, maybe? Or some red AK that is scared of the flush?
River is a bit too aggro for my taste. Villain might very well have AK with the Ace of trump here. After hit turn check I def. bet but just call a raise.

Edit: Villain din't really overvalue his hand on the river. He had to raise the river with trips or a lower flush. It's just though luck that you happened to have him crushed. You could have had any number of hands, AQ or TT or whatnot and he was very right to raise there. You're mubsy, that's what it is! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

NIX · #3 03-14-2007, 02:20 PM

I check/raise the flop vs. donking and then call down from a 3bet.

Maybe I'm being weak, but I don't 3bet the river. I think a silly A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Qx or something is more likely than T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Tx

martybonus · #4 03-14-2007, 02:21 PM

lol. yeah.

I go in two phases: 1) totally MUBSY, 2) completely stupid over-aggressive play like when i tried a pure bluff with bottom pair (a post or two ago).

still working on the happy medium [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

I'm curious about one thing tho. I'm pretty sure that in the past you've told me and/or others to basically go nuts with a made flush, even if it's possible that villain has a better one. what's different in this hand?
is it just a higher liklihood of a higher flush cos his 3bet suggests he probably has AA,KK,AK, etc?

**hand spoiler** villain showed AA, no flush.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #5 03-14-2007, 02:21 PM

yeah dont 3bet the river, he is repping As pretty hard there and obv there is no way you can trey-fold

fretelöo · #6 03-14-2007, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check/raise the flop vs. donking and then call down from a 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably c/r'ing is better than donk/calling, but if you give him a normal 3betting range, something like TT+ AQ+, you're behind AK, KK, AA = 21 combos and ahead of AQ, JJ, QQ -> 28 combos. If you c/r, he might fold JJ and QQ on the turn, and he'll def. fold AQ.

I think it's better to let him do the betting here?

fretelöo · #7 03-14-2007, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lol. yeah.

I go in two phases: 1) totally MUBSY, 2) completely stupid over-aggressive play like when i tried a pure bluff with bottom pair (a post or two ago).

still working on the happy medium [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

I'm curious about one thing tho. I'm pretty sure that in the past you've told me and/or others to basically go nuts with a made flush, even if it's possible that villain has a better one. what's different in this hand?
is it just a higher liklihood of a higher flush cos his 3bet suggests he probably has AA,KK,AK, etc?

**hand spoiler** villain showed AA, no flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that was whenever there was a 3flush on the board, i.e. when you needed two of the same suit. Here, villain needs only one - which is obv. a a lot more common scenario (sidenote: is that even syntactically correct: an a lot more common?) - and if he has a flush, he'll always have you beat.
Also, you basically tell him that you have a flush - if he's still raising, well, he doesn't seem too impressed...

NIX · #8 03-14-2007, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious about one thing tho. I'm pretty sure that in the past you've told me and/or others to basically go nuts with a made flush, even if it's possible that villain has a better one. what's different in this hand?
is it just a higher liklihood of a higher flush cos his 3bet suggests he probably has AA,KK,AK, etc?

**hand spoiler** villain showed AA, no flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. You know where most of the big spades are, so the most likely ones he has are the ace (AA/KK/AK/AQ) or ten (TT). Not everyone raises the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on this river, so the most likely spade is the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I don't remember your other flush posts, but I think a general rule is that when you have a two card flush, you can be less worried about a higher flush than when you have a one card flush as people are more likely to be playing big cards that can hang around with a big trump card than they are of playing two suited cards that connect with the board. Plus, people can still get agro with 2 pair/sets/straights on a 3 flush board, but a 4 flush board is usually scary enough to slow people down.

Riku · #9 03-14-2007, 02:42 PM

The way it was played, i bet call the river.
Check raise the flop, though.

Shillx · #10 03-14-2007, 03:00 PM

Out of tempo is the new OOT