Bertrand Russell - FISH!!!

NotReady · #1 03-13-2007, 08:31 PM

This is for chezlaw, as promised, since I'm really bored watching the grass grow.

From WIANAC:

[ QUOTE ]

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bit is so ridiculous an 8th grader could rip it to shreds.

1. I searched the KJV NT and found the word wailing 4 tmes. Only 2 of those were "wailing and gnashing of teeth", same chapter about 8 verses apart.

That really is all that's necessary to show the idiocy of Russell in this work. But just a little more:

2. It is in no wise manifest that Christ took pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Russell is quite obviously reading that into the text because of the absence of understanding he has of the Bible.

3. If what Christ says is true then in would occur so often.

DougShrapnel · #2 03-13-2007, 08:42 PM

I am waiting to become a christian. As per our agreement. Provided you read TGD and Sceince as a Candle in the Dark. Your are right it isn't verse after verse, it is verse, after verse, after verse, after verse. The pleasure in gnashing and wailing come from that evil people will be experiencing it, and not you. Very pleasurable if you ask me. I would find pleasure in avioding it. I will acept that you have proved Russell wrong, in that it was 4 versus and not just 2. Let me know when you have read the 2 books I mentioned and then I will be a christian. Seriously.

chezlaw · #3 03-13-2007, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is for chezlaw, as promised, since I'm really bored watching the grass grow.

From WIANAC:

[ QUOTE ]

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bit is so ridiculous an 8th grader could rip it to shreds.

1. I searched the KJV NT and found the word wailing 4 tmes. Only 2 of those were "wailing and gnashing of teeth", same chapter about 8 verses apart.

That really is all that's necessary to show the idiocy of Russell in this work. But just a little more:

2. It is in no wise manifest that Christ took pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Russell is quite obviously reading that into the text because of the absence of understanding he has of the Bible.

3. If what Christ says is true then in would occur so often.

[/ QUOTE ]
and that's your idea of a logical fallacy, your interpretation of 'quite manifest to the reader'

perhaps you'd like to ask him what it he meant. As for the frequency, he may not have meant those exact words being repeated. many readers are perturbed by the unpleasant relish in the bible at the suffering for the unbeliever.

chez

vhawk01 · #4 03-13-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is for chezlaw, as promised, since I'm really bored watching the grass grow.

From WIANAC:

[ QUOTE ]

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bit is so ridiculous an 8th grader could rip it to shreds.

1. I searched the KJV NT and found the word wailing 4 tmes. Only 2 of those were "wailing and gnashing of teeth", same chapter about 8 verses apart.

That really is all that's necessary to show the idiocy of Russell in this work. But just a little more:

2. It is in no wise manifest that Christ took pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Russell is quite obviously reading that into the text because of the absence of understanding he has of the Bible.

3. If what Christ says is true then in would occur so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read my fair share of Russell, and I've always found it thoughtful, intelligent, and persuasive, if a bit dated. So, when you made this big ordeal about how he made logical fallacy after fallacy in his writings about Christianity, I started to think perhaps I suck at reading more than I thought. I certainly didn't remember WIANAC being fraught with fallacies.

Imagine my relief when I read this post.

ChrisV · #5 03-14-2007, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is in no wise manifest that Christ took pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Russell is quite obviously reading that into the text because of the absence of understanding he has of the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably then, you consider an attitude of pleasure in contemplating this unchristian. Do you consider Thomas Aquinas unchristian?

[ QUOTE ]
That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.

-- St. Thomas Aquinas

[/ QUOTE ]

NotReady · #6 03-14-2007, 01:48 AM

Ezekiel 33:11 (New American Standard Bible)

11"Say to them, '(A)As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take (B)no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked (C)turn from his way and live (D)Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

chezlaw · #7 03-14-2007, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ezekiel 33:11 (New American Standard Bible)

11"Say to them, '(A)As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take (B)no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked (C)turn from his way and live (D)Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

[/ QUOTE ]Russell never claimed the bible didn't contradict itself.

He just observed relish, as do many others.

chez

Peter666 · #8 03-14-2007, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is in no wise manifest that Christ took pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Russell is quite obviously reading that into the text because of the absence of understanding he has of the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably then, you consider an attitude of pleasure in contemplating this unchristian. Do you consider Thomas Aquinas unchristian?

[ QUOTE ]
That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.

-- St. Thomas Aquinas

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The Aquinas quote does not imply taking sadistic pleasure in the torments of the damned. It implies being more thankful and grateful to God for saving them from the terrible sufferings of Hell.

ChrisV · #9 03-14-2007, 04:34 AM

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The Aquinas quote does not imply taking sadistic pleasure in the torments of the damned. It implies being more thankful and grateful to God for saving them from the terrible sufferings of Hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any evidence for this? No, of course not. You just believe that because that's what you want it to say.

Aquinas could have said this:

"That the saints be more thankful for their beatitude and the grace of God they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell."

He didn't. He said very clearly that the saints would "enjoy" their situation more through seeing the damned.

ChrisV · #10 03-14-2007, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ezekiel 33:11 (New American Standard Bible)

11"Say to them, '(A)As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take (B)no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked (C)turn from his way and live (D)Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

[/ QUOTE ]

Counterpoint!

[ QUOTE ]
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this mesh with the idea that God wants everyone to be saved?