Calling for Clock Incident

thefish8 · #1 03-13-2007, 02:03 PM

I don't post on here often, if ever, but I ran into a situation where I cannot distinctly figure out whether I am right or wrong.

This is a $2/$5 NL game, I'm in the 6 seat of a 9 player table. I'm in the BB and look down at KK, middle player raises to $20, button calls (notice the button is in the 4 seat), I re-raise to $60 and both players call. Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I lead for $80, mid player drops and button calls. Turn comes a blank, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I check for the trap, button leads for $120, and I move in for an additional $300 on top. A minute (at most) into the buttons decision, seat 5 (who has ~$100 in front of him), calls for clock. Within 2 seconds the button says call. He rolls KJ and spikes a 9 on the river for the straight. He then proceeds to apologize for the bad beat he gave me and I replied saying I don't mind the call, it's your money and decision, I have a problem with the guy in between us calling for the clock. The button responded saying it didn't affect his decision and I asked, then why did you call so quickly. No response.

If this was a tournament situation, I can't argue with the player who called for time because he is losing minutes on the play clock, but this was a cash game. He had nothing vested in the hand except for his LB! And it was only a minute maybe, not a ridiculous amount of time considering the size of the pot and situation. Though, he was within the rules of the casino, so there is the dilemma.

I don't know if it should be in the B&M topic, but I would definitely appreciate some feedback.

Dennisa · #2 03-13-2007, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't post on here often, if ever, but I ran into a situation where I cannot distinctly figure out whether I am right or wrong.

This is a $2/$5 NL game, I'm in the 6 seat of a 9 player table. I'm in the BB and look down at KK, middle player raises to $20, button calls (notice the button is in the 4 seat), I re-raise to $60 and both players call. Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I lead for $80, mid player drops and button calls. Turn comes a blank, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I check for the trap, button leads for $120, and I move in for an additional $300 on top. A minute (at most) into the buttons decision, seat 5 (who has ~$100 in front of him), calls for clock. Within 2 seconds the button says call. He rolls KJ and spikes a 9 on the river for the straight. He then proceeds to apologize for the bad beat he gave me and I replied saying I don't mind the call, it's your money and decision, I have a problem with the guy in between us calling for the clock. The button responded saying it didn't affect his decision and I asked, then why did you call so quickly. No response.

If this was a tournament situation, I can't argue with the player who called for time because he is losing minutes on the play clock, but this was a cash game. He had nothing vested in the hand except for his LB! And it was only a minute maybe, not a ridiculous amount of time considering the size of the pot and situation. Though, he was within the rules of the casino, so there is the dilemma.

I don't know if it should be in the B&M topic, but I would definitely appreciate some feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is over 750 and he has 180 to call. A minute is long enough, and I bet seat 5 is stuck and wants to get in another hand quicker.

thefish8 · #3 03-13-2007, 02:23 PM

It was a bit over $300 more, not $180.

So you are agreeing with the clock caller then, correct?

kb09pkt · #4 03-13-2007, 02:25 PM

If it was only 1 minute, than I think that is a douche move to pull, especially if he was not in the hand. However, any longer than 2 minute, IMO, it is justified to call the clock. I think it also depends on whether this player has a history of making long, drawn out decisions. If this is the first time he has done this, then give the guy some time, but if we're talking about a Tiffany Williamson type, who takes 20 minutes on every decision, then I think calling the clock is justified after 20 seconds. I guess it depends on the history of this player.

Obfuscation · #5 03-13-2007, 02:27 PM

The first time something like this happened to me, I was fairly livid.

Since then I've learned that indeed any player can call the clock on any other but I still kind of hate it. Especially when the person calling for the clock does it (in my estimation) too quickly.

I once was facing a huge raise on the river for my stack and the raiser's buddy called the clock on me within literally 10 seconds. I was furious that the dealer/floor let that go and it admittedly tilted me, which was probably the point. I think that's crap and beyond typical gamesmanship.

I understand it's annoying to wait for ages for simple decisions, especially in a time game but I personally wish there were a firmer rule about the clock and its usage. Perhaps left to dealer discretion or some such.

Alas, not much you can do. Play was kosher.

thefish8 · #6 03-13-2007, 02:49 PM

The guy had no history of taking his time to make any bets and it truly was between 30-60 seconds.

Not the definitive answer I was looking for, I guess it's all bogus, just something we will have to deal with.

thefish8 · #7 03-13-2007, 02:56 PM

At another incident, there was a guy who took his time to make every call, whether it was a small or large bet. At one point he was faced with a medium-large bet decision and no one on the table called for clock, it took about 3-4 minutes for him to fold. Later on when another guy was on a bigger decision for more money, the slow player called for a clock after a minute and a half. I wasn't involved in either hand but I got furious with this. Luckily this was at my regular casino, so I knew the floor and told them how ridiculous this guy has been and they gave him a warning.

Score one for the good guys [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

eastcoaster · #8 03-13-2007, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The first time something like this happened to me, I was fairly livid.

Since then I've learned that indeed any player can call the clock on any other but I still kind of hate it. Especially when the person calling for the clock does it (in my estimation) too quickly.

I once was facing a huge raise on the river for my stack and the raiser's buddy called the clock on me within literally 10 seconds. I was furious that the dealer/floor let that go and it admittedly tilted me, which was probably the point. I think that's crap and beyond typical gamesmanship.

I understand it's annoying to wait for ages for simple decisions, especially in a time game but I personally wish there were a firmer rule about the clock and its usage. Perhaps left to dealer discretion or some such.

Alas, not much you can do. Play was kosher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Similar experience here, resulting tilt and all, and in the end it was a lesson learned. The kicker was that the guy I was up against was blatantly showing his hand to his buddy in the adjacent seat, who then called for the clock after his buddy with the live hand reraised. I thought it was BS and since I was going to fold anyway, I waited, and the dealer mucked my hand after a minute or so. I asked the dealer to call the floor but she wouldn't. She said the play was okay and that there was no need for a floor. I told her that I wanted a ruling on it and called the floor over on my own, only to have the entire rule explained to me and realize that what they had done was within the rules. I was upset though. The guy in the hand was somewhat apologetic afterwards and recognized that it was poor gamesmanship, but also pointed out that it was not he who called for the clock. His buddy (who had lost several buy-ins prior to my arrival, and had but a few chips left overall) didn't care and said he would do it to anyone and everyone he could because it was in the rules.

NickMPK · #9 03-13-2007, 03:42 PM

I think that calling a clock on anyone in a cash game, and especially in a NL raked game is very bad form, unless that person has been habitually stalling, or he has already taken at least about 5 minutes.

bav · #10 03-13-2007, 04:02 PM

In this particularly case, I think OP shoulda wanted the call. The guy wasn't getting the odds he need to make that call, so the end result was OP got what he shoulda wanted. He's letting the unfortunate result cloud his thinking a bit. If he'd won there wouldn't be any post on 2+2.

But yeah, I almost never call for a clock in a cash game. I can take a walk or go flirt with a chick I know I have no shot at while letting someone think. But there's no point getting worked up over it, either. People do use the clock to try to manipulate and tilt other players, so don't let it get to you. I've even had a player who was all-in in a hand whisper to me "call the clock on him for me" like 15 seconds after he went all-in... Nope, not gonna do it, buddy--do your own dirty work.