10NL: Playing bottom two on a draw board OOP

molotom · #1 03-13-2007, 01:38 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 ($8.15)
CO ($24.10)
Button ($12.55)
Hero ($10.60)
BB ($16.50)
UTG ($5)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($3.85)
MP2 ($5.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets $0.5, BB calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 folds, Button folds.
With just 2 calls here, I think I am now up against straight draws/top pair. There are a few hands that have me smoked already, but we'll find out on the turn I suppose.

Turn: ($2) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Not a bad card IMO, it doesn't make any draws. I suppose KJ is now a threat (would someone limp with K8/K9 and then call the flop?) but on the other hand someone might have made top pair and be ready to pay me off.

Hero bets $1.6, BB calls $1.60, MP2 folds.
Looks like MP2 was on the draw, I think BB has a pair, perhaps with a draw too.

River: ($5.20) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, BB calls $1.50.
Can't ask for a better card than that... here I am looking for jack/king pairs to call the value-bet.

Final Pot: $8.20

thoughts? This situation seemed relatively unusual to me... there are some hands that have me beaten, but in the absence of any raises I feel I just have to go along with it.

RollTide77 · #2 03-13-2007, 01:49 PM

It's not suited so fold PF. You won't hit the straight often enough and the 8 & 9 are useless OOP. As played beware of QT limping in. C/f the river.

DawnToDusk · #3 03-13-2007, 01:57 PM

I think you can bet more on the flop. Even though the first person that calls this is getting offered only 2-to-1 on their money, the people behind them have better and better odds. If you bet somewhere above $.50 but not more than $.80 you cut down on their odds. But this has some inherent dangers to it too that you must keep in mind.

In a general case, if your bigger bets get raised it (if your opponents bet size correctly) ought to be harder for you to call their raise as opposed to if your smaller bets get raised. For example if you bet $.50 and get raised to $1.50 the your odds of calling his raise is 2.5-to-1. If you bet $.80 and get raised to $2.40 then the odds the money in the pot is laying you for the money you have to call is roughly 2.3-to-1. Not much of a difference but the effect gets magnified on later streets when bets get larger. You kind of get the idea.

The rest of the hand looks pretty good though. You gave us your reasoning and it made sense and you picked the best action that was likely to cause your opponents to make a mistake when they react to it.

Caelallaiach · #4 03-13-2007, 09:03 PM

I would play this hand the same way.

Caelallaiach · #5 03-13-2007, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not suited so fold PF. You won't hit the straight often enough and the 8 & 9 are useless OOP. As played beware of QT limping in. C/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, he's getting 9 to 1 pot odds with unsuited connectors and I think with the implied odds when he makes a good hand (2 pair or better) his preflop call is fine.

davidyang · #6 03-13-2007, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not suited so fold PF. You won't hit the straight often enough and the 8 & 9 are useless OOP. As played beware of QT limping in. C/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't say this, because we're all trying to learn, but this is absolutely terrible advice. Do not c/f river. Preflop you can call with a bunch of limpers. You have no reason to not believe that you have the best hand here.

Mal_Pais · #7 03-13-2007, 09:21 PM

Tough one. I don't play full ring, so I can't comment on the preflop.

On the flop, we have two pair on an ugly board. I play this fast and almost always want to see the turn, unless Villians do something crazy. The flop bet is good, but everybody and their brother are getting decent prices to continue. I'm not worried about overpairs, but QT is a reasonable hand to be lurking out there.

The turn card is not that bad, unless one of our 2 villians got lucky with a Kx hand. Yes, I would not be shocked to see villians flip over K8 or K9, 'specially if they are sooted. Not to mention KJ. The turn bet is solid.

On the river, I wouldn't bother with that small a blocker. I really don't know where we're at in the hand, with Villian calling down. I may be missing value here, but I check to induce a bluff. Our hand isn't a real monster on this board.

molotom · #8 03-14-2007, 03:35 PM

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9s 8h (two pair, nines and eights).
BB has Qs Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $8.20.


Was it right for him to call the turn here? He can't think his jack pair is still good; he has 4 outs to a straight far too obvious to be paid off, and 5 outs to a set/two-pair which could cost him his stack (RIO?).

RollTide77 · #9 03-14-2007, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not suited so fold PF. You won't hit the straight often enough and the 8 & 9 are useless OOP. As played beware of QT limping in. C/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, he's getting 9 to 1 pot odds with unsuited connectors and I think with the implied odds when he makes a good hand (2 pair or better) his preflop call is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]He is first to act on each street with a bunch of limpers and with what is usually guaranteed to be at best 2nd best hand assuming he doesn't make a set, two pair, or a straight. And making a straight assumes he doesn't get pushed out before he makes it and making a set assumes he doesn't get out-set. How many times is that going to happen compared to how many times you donk of a bunch of chips on a 9 high flop only to get beat by K9 acting behind you. It's -EV to play this hand early. Pull up your PT stats and look. He hit a great flop this time but how many times is that going to happen?

And I meant c/f to any large bet on the river. Of course you are going to call a 5:1 bet.

mrcfkane · #10 03-14-2007, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not suited so fold PF. You won't hit the straight often enough and the 8 & 9 are useless OOP. As played beware of QT limping in. C/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is too weak...get that eastwood icon out of here