Raising blind? (slightly long)

[Wubbie075]

In an NL home game I play there is one player who likes to put in raises before cards have been dealt. He thinks it is "creative" but I think it is just dumb (that's another discussion, though lol). He might do this from any position so is it considered a straddle if he does it from middle or even late position?

#1 I am wondering about the legality of it. And, if he is allowed to do it, I just have a few questions about the mechanics of it so I know how to adapt.

Let's say he raises blind from middle position and I am dealt AA UTG. If I want to play must I put in the amount of his raise (then everyone else can also call and I'm forced to take AA into a 5 way pot), or since it is technically not his action yet, can I limp for the price of BB, then it gets around to his action, his raise comes into play and then I can reraise when it comes back to me? Or, since he declared a "raise" can I raise first, and then he is forced to at a minimum double my raise even though his intention was to put in 4BB? Finally, if I move in UTG, is he forced to play since he declared his action, or can he fold his 4BB and that's just dead money in the pot?

Like I said I think it is really stupid of him to do this, so I'm not really looking for an excuse to make him stop. I just want to understand it so I can better exploit this practice.

Thanks

[mugatu668]

This would be acting out of turn. He can announce that he is going to raise before he sees his cards, but he can't raise until it's his turn. He will have to wait for his turn to act.

[GiantBuddha]

What he wants to do is post a sleeper. A sleeper is a straddle posted by a player not under the gun. If there is any action ahead of the sleeper (besides folds) then it is taken off and that player can do whatever he wants. If the action is folded around to the sleeper, then the bet acts as a straddle. Usually you're not allowed to post a sleeper on the button.

If what he really wants to do is just raise blind, then you should limp/reraise all of your big hands against him, as you're assured to take some of his money. This is a very profitable opponent.

[PantsOnFire]

Deliberately acting out of turn is against the rules. And I believe the consequences are warning, penalty and ultimately disqualification. However, a lot of acting out of turn is to cause other players to give off tells or otherwise disrupt them. Raising blind before the cards are dealt does not really fit that bill and personally I wouldn't care since it is usually -EV.

As far as what you can do about, as long as you play by common rules, here is how it goes down. Acting out of turn is binding as long as there is no action by the players he jumped over. If there is any bet, call or raise, then he can pull his raise back and start over.

It would be difficult to exploit this when in front of him since he can just pull it back. If it has been folded to him, he must keep in out and you can cold call or reraise behind him with a much wider range obviously. Unless he is an expert postflop player, he is going to find himself in raised pots with trash hands a lot. That's good for everybody.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
In an NL home game I play there is one player who likes to put in raises before cards have been dealt. He thinks it is "creative" but I think it is just dumb (that's another discussion, though lol). He might do this from any position so is it considered a straddle if he does it from middle or even late position?

[/ QUOTE ]

boooo, dont be a nit. i straddle pretty much every single opportunity in our homegame. REMEMBER SHANIA AND YOU WILL PROSPER.

[C-Dog]

There is nothing wrong with what he is doing. It happens in a lot of Casino Games. His bet counts as the first raise, and if you are UTG, then you can Limp for what he has already put in.

C-Dog

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with what he is doing. It happens in a lot of Casino Games. His bet counts as the first raise, and if you are UTG, then you can Limp for what he has already put in.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

Sleeper bets are casino dependent. Many casinos do not allow sleepers at most limits. For a home game this would be a house decision and should be agreed to before hand. It is not typical of most NL games.

I think some people have been reading Wikipidea too much. There was one post about a sleeper bet today in the B&M forum but that was the first one I saw in a long time. To confirm I searched on "sleeper" going back 1 year and barely found any references and the ones I did find generally confirmed my first hand experience that at most limits, in most casinos sleepers are not allowed.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
What he wants to do is post a sleeper. A sleeper is a straddle posted by a player not under the gun. If there is any action ahead of the sleeper (besides folds) then it is taken off and that player can do whatever he wants. If the action is folded around to the sleeper, then the bet acts as a straddle. Usually you're not allowed to post a sleeper on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought a sleeper straddle had to remain in place if people just called in front of it? If what you say is true about rescinding the straddle to a CALL, then you should straddle at every opportunity in middle to late position.

If what you say is true, then this is even MORE of a reason for me to never play with one. Raise out of turn, force people to call the raise and you can take it back if someone raises before you (or worse, calls)?? Punish the blinds and UTG even more than they already are, with little risk of committed investment?

I won't play with this- someone tried to introduce it in a home game I played in irregularly and I refused to play. They even tried to make it a live straddle.

You want to raise out of turn, fine- you're committed to the raise and people can call the normal amounts or reraise in front of you to punish you.

[GiantBuddha]

Sleepers are hugely -EV. So are straddles. The only other players who suffer are the blinds. It effectively makes the BB another SB, and we all know the SB sucks. Sleepers and straddles aren't strategic plays. They're gambling plays intended to raise the stakes and generate action. If you're UTG, the sleeper doesn't affect you one bit, because once you're in the pot, the sleeper is off. The button benefits hugely from a sleeper because it's just more dead money ahead of him. If someone offered to play $1/2 NL with you, but on your button you got to play $2/5, would you accept? Yes. Sleepers and straddles are great for the game, even if you're a nit.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're UTG, the sleeper doesn't affect you one bit, because once you're in the pot, the sleeper is off.


[/ QUOTE ]
How does being forced to call a higher amount benefit you? Unlike a blind raise, where you can limp along for the regular amount with greater pot odds and then have the chance to limp-reraise? Does that affect everyone between the blinds and the sleeper?

Am I mistaken on how sleeper straddles work? They aren't always hugely -EV, if it throws people off of their normal game.

[ QUOTE ]
The button benefits hugely from a sleeper because it's just more dead money ahead of him. If someone offered to play $1/2 NL with you, but on your button you got to play $2/5, would you accept? Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that positions after the straddle (other than the blinds) benefit. Your comment reads as if the sleeper is limited to certain positions, rather than any but UTG and blinds. Did I misinterpret?

Generally, I'm against any concept that allows people to pull back announced raises- just because we call it a sleeper straddle doesn't mean it should be different.

And no, I might NOT accept the bump, if I don't have the bankroll for $2/5 every other hand. But it's a contrived scenario and doesn't count anyway.