Standard play? 78s first in.

Pondy · #1 03-08-2007, 06:20 AM

I've been thinking about this situation lately. suited connectors in a multi way pot. for example, you are in MP1 with 78s. Alot of preflop starting guides will tell you to fold this in early pos. However in mid pos limp. Personally i don't like this at all. If I limp and get 3 other limpers, flop a gutshot straight I dont have the pot odds to call a bet. However if I raise PF and get 3 or 4 callers I just about have the pot odds to call a bet (certainly have implied odds due to hidden nature of the hand). Plus my oppenents without a good read cant put me on this starting hand.

Thoughts ?

seano34 · #2 03-08-2007, 06:28 AM

I dont play this OOP as you almost always end up in an uncomfortable drawing hand OOP with overcards to act behind you.

I will limp in with it in late position if it is a large multi way pot. I never raise it PF though.

fretelöo · #3 03-08-2007, 06:29 AM

Yes, this thinking (raising gives me better odds to draw to my GS) has convinced me lately to ALWAYS cap the flop if I have a gutshot or some other backdoor draw. Surely the folding equity I generate, together with the implied odds of hitting my hand and making them pay, is +EV. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

First of all, you should limp behind with it. Open-limping with 78s and similar hands is a mistake just about always. You want to KNOW that the pot is multiway when you even enter it. If you open-limp, it's possible (and not that terribly uncommon) that it's folded to Btn who raises and the blinds fold. Now you're HU in a small pot with a hand that wants the opposite.

seano34 · #4 03-08-2007, 06:36 AM

"Yes, this thinking (raising gives me better odds to draw to my GS) has convinced me lately to ALWAYS cap the flop if I have a gutshot or some other backdoor draw"

Are you being sarcastic?

Thomas Newton · #5 03-08-2007, 06:38 AM

I'm not auto-open limping with this hand from mp. I will call if someone/more than one has already called. That way even if someone aggro is behind I can call a raise if it comes back one bet more to me. I might occasionally open limp if I am certain weak players will limp behind - this is rare.

Its speculative - I want a set, two pair, oesd or fd or I'm done with it.

If you are looking at the starting hand charts in SSHE remember that you have to judge each of these suggestions alongside the discussion of the hand categories.

The chart is no good in isolation and its not meant to be used that way.

Thomas Newton · #6 03-08-2007, 06:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"Yes, this thinking (raising gives me better odds to draw to my GS) has convinced me lately to ALWAYS cap the flop if I have a gutshot or some other backdoor draw"

Are you being sarcastic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Pondy · #7 03-08-2007, 06:45 AM

The starting hand requirements is use at a full table is from Lee Jones 'winning low limit holdem'.

I do take in table conditions first as well.

Ampelmann · #8 03-08-2007, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about this situation lately. suited connectors in a multi way pot. for example, you are in MP1 with 78s. Alot of preflop starting guides will tell you to fold this in early pos. However in mid pos limp.

[/ QUOTE ]
I fold 87s in MP if there aren't at least 2-3 limpers to me (or one that plays badly in case a raise after me is not ver y likely). In LP I need less limpers to play.

In LP I might even raise when there are several limpers (4-5) to me, but not for the reason you mentioned ...

[ QUOTE ]
Personally i don't like this at all. If I limp and get 3 other limpers, flop a gutshot straight I dont have the pot odds to call a bet. However if I raise PF and get 3 or 4 callers I just about have the pot odds to call a bet

[/ QUOTE ]
So your argument is along the following line: You are willing to put a lot of money in preflop with a hand that's likely an underdog, thereby decreasing your (important) implied odds with a speculative hand just to get proper pot odds on the flop to continue with a marginal draw? This is pretty bad.

Small or middle suited connectors are rarely the best hand preflop, so you don't play them for immediate value but for implied odds. You don't hope to flop a gutshot. You hope to flop an OESD, a flush draw, or a monster draw. If you don't flop one of these, you most often let it go on the flop.

By raising preflop you might make the gutshot playable, but you put in a lot money preflop with a hand that's not the best (and that often doesn't even have an equity edge) and at the same time you lower your implied odds considerably (they're not cut in half, that's why it's often profitable to raise them on a tight table when there are several limpers for once).

Ampelmann · #9 03-08-2007, 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this thinking (raising gives me better odds to draw to my GS) has convinced me lately to ALWAYS cap the flop if I have a gutshot

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's great. For the final bet you put in on the flop you get really great odds. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

seano34 · #10 03-08-2007, 07:31 AM

Pondy - I would recommend you get and read Small Stakes Hold Em. Its widely considered the definitive text on Small Stakes Limit games (3/6 down - despite having practical applications at all levels).

It was written by a well respected tpt'er Ed Miller in conjunction with David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth - and will give you a great founding in a tight aggressive style suitable at these levels.