PL 5 Card; Drawing Question

flair1239 · #1 03-06-2007, 12:13 AM

Say you are in the CO or Button and have a hand like Jacks, Queens, or even tens; and you are carrying an A or K kicker. You raise, get called by the BB or SB and they draw one or two.. or hell even 3.

Anything wrong with keeping the A or the K to improve your chances of a strong two pair; even though you give up one of your chances to make trips.

I have been doing this a bit in HU situations. I have done the math, I am just looking for some thoughts.

flafishy · #2 03-06-2007, 01:58 AM

Caveat: I'm a limit player, not a PL player.

But in limit, I'll hold the A and represent trips if foe draws 3. If foe then checks, bet even if you don't improve.

If foe draws one or two, I'll throw away the ace and take my best chance to improve.

Big Limpin · #3 03-06-2007, 04:41 AM

flair,

It is in your best interests to appear as weak as possible in this hand. Your opponent will instantly feel better about his hand when he sees you draw 3. Being as you have position on villain, you will win sick pots when you BOTh improve. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] PL

Think about this: Between AA-up and JJ-up, list the hands villain would have to have before it matters what hand you bring to the showdown?

Contrast that EV flux with how many extra BB's you will net, if you quell villains fear that you have a monster.

List · #4 03-06-2007, 07:21 PM

I think drawing 2 is somewhat transparent anyway. Decent opponents will not put you on trips when you draw 2, since you'd never draw 2 in this situation with trips. I generally draw 3 here and max the chance at trips. Drawing 3 says less about your hand than drawing 2.

flafishy · #5 03-06-2007, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think drawing 2 is somewhat transparent anyway. Decent opponents will not put you on trips when you draw 2, since you'd never draw 2 in this situation with trips. I generally draw 3 here and max the chance at trips. Drawing 3 says less about your hand than drawing 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who never draws 2 in this situation? I'll always draw 2 after open-raising with a pair/A kicker (if foe then draws 3) or with a small set (no matter how many foe draws).

List · #6 03-07-2007, 01:39 AM

I never draw 2 to trips in this situation. I have never seen good players do this in the games that I play. By drawing 2 you are saying more about the strength of your hand than by drawing 3. If you draw 3, you are saying that you have a pair=TT+(or whatever your raising requirements are). If you draw 2, you're saying that you have a mid pair with a big kicker. Most players never have trips when they draw 2 here. The exceptions being a very bad player, or a very good player trying to represent a bluff post draw.

Not saying it's a huge leak to draw 2 in this situtation, maybe even if you have trips it isn't that bad. I'm just saying good players almost never seem to do it.

Tom Bayes · #7 03-07-2007, 10:19 AM

If you are going to draw 2 in this situation (which I will do sometimes), you've got to do it like flafishy, where you will draw 2 both to pairs with an Ace kicker and some of your lower trips. If you are only going to draw 2 when you are keeping a kicker or you are only going to draw 2 when you have small trips, then you would be better off joining the "never draw 2" school.

forhasta · #8 03-08-2007, 04:20 PM

If someone had just come to the game and drew 2 from OTB after an open-raise i might give him credit for trips. But it would sound my alarm bells and I'm watching him every hand to see what he has whenever he draws 2 again. As Tom says, I would also checkout whether he compulsively draws 1 to trips. If so, his 2 draw is totally transparent. In actual fact, it's much worse than a drawing 3 as you pretty much know he doesnt have a pair of AA or KK under there. The range of hands is something like:

AQQxx, AJJxx, A1010xx, KQQxx, KJJxx, K1010xx

so it's not hard to figure out where you're at postdraw.

flafishy · #9 03-09-2007, 12:38 AM

Therefore, don't always draw 1 to trips.

List · #10 03-09-2007, 02:52 AM

I'd like to repeat that people almost never draw 2 to trips after open raising in lp. There are very few people who play a balanced strategy with trips/mid pairs like this, and I'm not sure if it's worth doing, ev wise. At best it's a small + for a lot of hassle.

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, don't always draw 1 to trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

People most often draw 2 to trips in reraised pots, usually out of position. I had a very sick player draw 2 to AA oop against me, got me to split 2 pair and lose the hand.