KK

Genesis · #1 03-03-2007, 03:11 AM

Absolute $1/2 6m

Reads: UTG is loose and somewhat passive, like a 40/10/1.5 type player. SB is also loose, and even more passive.

UTG raises, I 3bet K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop (10SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG bets, I call, SB folds.

Innocuous board, is it a bad idea to slow play here? At the time it seemed like a good spot, now I'm not so sure since SB can now call with any 3x, 4x, or draw profitably. Yeah, probably not a good idea, anyway, let me know how bad it was.

Turn (6BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG bets, I raise, UTG calls.

Well at least that worked as hoped.

River (10BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG bets, I raise...

Raise or call? I put him on QJs or AQ as his most likely hands at this point, maybe JJ. I would call a 3bet.

nickg1532 · #2 03-03-2007, 03:16 AM

i think it's fine. he probably has QJ. you can safely fold to a 3 bet from a loose passive.

bobhalford · #3 03-03-2007, 09:58 AM

I prefer to raise the flop, getting the SB out and then seeing if UTG makes it 3 bets. He could, simply because he donked the flop into you. But as a passive player, he probably will just donk/call the flop and/or turn with KQ or AQ. That's just how these bad passive players do it.

Another reason to raise the flop is to collect bets when you can. The passive player might not bet the turn with 99. He would have to have a Q to bet the turn. But as a passive player, how often is he not donking this flop without a Queen or better? He's not messing about with A5 or A4. So perhaps the flop call is ok in that respect, since there isn't much else for UTG to have besides a Q, and he's often betting the turn with that.

A lot of times though, after you raise the flop and are called, UTG will donk the turn. I think donk/call turn and donk/call river is a less common line than donk/call flop and donk/call turn. Usually after getting called on the flop and then raised on the turn, these players are not going to donk the river unless the river card helps them.

I think your hand on the river is good. I don't think QJ often raises UTG, and this player thinks his Queen is good. So as played, I like your turn and river play.

HoneyBadger · #4 03-03-2007, 10:08 AM

40% vpip with an af of 1.5 is not so passive btw.
I wouldn't fold to this guy. So I'd just call the river. Maybe he makes the donkey play of "I have a queen I bet, oh I get raised, maybe he has a draw. Oh blankish river, is m queen still good? I bet." But more likely that J simply helped him. You don't want to fold to one more bet due to a 3bet in a pot that contains 15 BB with KK overpair.

Yeah, raise the flop too.

dumb ox · #5 03-03-2007, 10:10 AM

On the flop, even with the raise, a pair is getting odds to call (equity is roughly 20%, and pots laying 6.5:1). But a pair is getting much better odds without the raise, and a lone ace could correctly call without the raise. So a raise is definitely in order.

After the turn raise, I'm not sure I like the river raise against a passive player. But I'm not sure.

Veron · #6 03-03-2007, 10:24 AM

a passive 40/10 player isn't likely to raise QJs PF UTG, they almost allways limp that kind of hands. AQ is likely, but I wouldn't be surprised to see JJ at all.

Anyway, raise the flop for the reasons mentioned already.
When he donks the river I call if he's passive.
(if he's 40/10/1.5 I raise)

mvoss · #7 03-03-2007, 10:33 AM

In a pot this size I raise the flop to get out SB, as played I think the turn and river are fine. I wouldn't fold to a river 3-bet either since this player is not really passive.

hizo · #8 03-03-2007, 11:14 AM

I like your raise. JJ is the only hand he does this with where you're behind, QJ and AQ much more likely.

Genesis · #9 03-03-2007, 01:18 PM

I probably should have clarified my read on villain a bit better, but I think it could only possibly affect the river decision. Yes he was 40/10/1.5 but his aggression was odd. It mostly came from situations where he was donking, not getting in there and raising to protect or value betting likely best hands, etc. This table was uncommonly passive so he had many chances to donk and increase his aggression factor. So it's kind of deceiving. At any rate, QJs as another poster mentioned is probably unlikely for this guy UTG. AQ I still think is most likely, probably followed by JJ.

Results:

River
He bets, I raise, he calls.

And shows JJ.

HoneyBadger · #10 03-03-2007, 01:21 PM

hehe if he won't 3 bet a hand like that raising is always correct. (sometimes I really don't get these guys... yesterday I had some highcards, flop is paired with a rag, he check I bet he calls. Turn is blank, he checks, I check behind (for whatever reason I had). River is blank, he checks, I check behind. He shows flopped quads...)