Losing Players.

epdaws · #1 03-01-2007, 03:02 PM

Sorry I've been buried in work, all. I still enjoy reading the forums and I'll try to up my posting capacity soon. (I'm sure plenty are reading this and saying, "Um, right, and you are...?")

Anyway, I've noticed that the epwife encounters quite a few players with decent stats -- or quite a few known 2p2ers, in fact -- who seem to be losing players. In fact, they seemed to be hemmoraging cash like a bank fault built on an IED factory.

I decided to compile the past month's data from known 2p2ers and players with stats of 25 vpip or less AND 12 or higher pfr.

My wife datamines quite a bit these days, but perhaps your numbers are different?

52k hands.

FT 100 only.

Total: -$1,512.25

Number of losing players: exactly 60%

Average stats: 20.1 vpip / 14.8 pfr / 3.2 af

52k is not a huge sample, but it's interesting enough to me. The average 2p2er would go on a shooting spree if they lost 15 buy-ins over 52k hands.

I sit with my wife when she plays some afternoons, and this has me itching to get back on a regular playing schedule.

Any thoughts? I mean, other than "Most TAGs are chow meow blah blah they suck compared to me, you know." I know.

Scofield · #2 03-01-2007, 03:03 PM

? in before lock?

Not funny ---- 4_2_it

4_2_it · #3 03-01-2007, 03:05 PM

Nice to have you back bro. I think what it says is that pre-flop dick waving stats are meaningless. Most of the money in poker is made/lost postflop.

BGnight · #4 03-01-2007, 03:06 PM

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pre-flop dick waving stats are meaningless.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

epdaws · #5 03-01-2007, 03:07 PM

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? in before lock?

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Wow, I know I'm rusty, but lock-worthy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I was hoping this thread would generate some answers to the following questions:

1) Is FT a serious rock garden, even though total players continues to rise?

2) Is it simply unrealistic to assume we can ever touch the success we had during the PP glory days?

3) Does the typical tag prototype (19/16/3, etc) not work as well as some would like at this level? Does 100 NL call for a more optimal style?

Online poker is changing, and I, for one, find these to be interesting questions.

MasterLJ · #6 03-01-2007, 03:08 PM

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Nice to have you back bro. I think what it says is that pre-flop dick waving stats are meaningless. Most of the money in poker is made/lost postflop.

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So true.

I'm witnessing a lot of the same at NL$200. I think if you look at things like WTSD and WSD, and aggression per street, you will find your answer.

Bottom line, if you are a non-thinking HUDbot who doesn't adjust to table conditions, or who plays just to make your stats look good, you are probably a losing player.

derosnec · #7 03-01-2007, 03:08 PM

it was agreed a while ago that an 85/2/.0001 style is optimal in the post-legislation environment

epdaws · #8 03-01-2007, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nice to have you back bro. I think what it says is that pre-flop dick waving stats are meaningless. Most of the money in poker is made/lost postflop.

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I agree -- especially at lower stakes. But I would guess that others might find different numbers in their databases; I don't think the average 20/15/3 TAG is a loser at 100, but I could be wrong.

I've added some questions, 4_2, because I've been away from the game for a while -- only getting my poker fix vicariously through my wife and occasionally sitting in to play when she has a phone call, etc. But boy, the glory of PP has truly evaporated, it seems.

carrotsnake · #9 03-01-2007, 03:11 PM

ep, best way to get a shitton of data is to bug goofy. and he's actually smart enough to figure out exactly what your looking at. What I think your getting at though is that a lot of 2p2ers are losing players, or at least people with 2p2 type preflop stats. This is true cuz of what 4_2 said. Money is made postflop in most cases, not pre. Also, money is made predominately from playing players worse than you, I asumme many 100 nl players don't recognize that and sit in awful games. Also, variance hurts during just 50k stretches.

Probably the biggest reason though is that a lot of people have gotten the book stuff down. Raise x when sitting y, 3 bet a when b raises. All that stuff. But they don't get why. They don't understand what they are doing, just that doing it is the right thing. Poker is a ton more than just book type strategy and people just haven't gotten "it" yet, whatever that "it" is for them. Its different for everyone, but thats always been my feeling when playing "TAGfish". They just do stuff cuz they have to, or they read to, not cuz they realize WHY to.

MasterLJ · #10 03-01-2007, 03:11 PM

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? in before lock?

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Wow, I know I'm rusty, but lock-worthy? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I was hoping this thread would generate some answers to the following questions:

1) Is FT a serious rock garden, even though total players continues to rise?
I guess... but only via stats. It's very very common to see people stack off with TPTK, even the "rocks."

2) Is it simply unrealistic to assume we can ever touch the success we had during the PP glory days?
Not at all. There's always something new to exploit. I've said this before, but I'm looking to be one of the best players in the world, not just to prey on bad players for all of my life.

3) Does the typical tag prototype (19/16/3, etc) not work as well as some would like at this level? Does 100 NL call for a more optimal style?
Reading situations >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;> any pre-flop stats. Most people don't read situations at all. And if you work on getting a fairly loose image, you are going to get called with your big hands.

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