How do you explain the difference to stupid people?

[SammyKid11]

Loosely in my circle of friends (which is to say, friend of a friend's husband), there is a guy who is a degenerate gambling addict. He and his wife have two small children, they live in a shoddy little apartment, and neither of them have good jobs. She's a secretary and makes about 10 dollars an hour. He works construction and makes around 15. Not great for a family of four.

What makes it worse is that when he gets paid, he hits a gas station on his way home in a rural part of their town. The gas station has a couple of those slots-for-gift-cards type things. Basically, you put in real money, and if you win, out comes a gift card to different area stores. Some of them are to places where a family of four with little money can't even get anything of real value to them, like the Bass Pro Shop..."sorry the kids have nothing to wear to school, but we're ALL SET on lures for the next 17 years."

But he fancies himself a "gambler," and he takes his paycheck every Friday and hits this gas station...where he proceeds to blow most or all of his paycheck on these slots.

People in this very loose circle call him a gambler. They call me a gambler. And, as I'm sure many of you realize, trying to explain the +EV nature of skilled poker to people that barely passed math class 10 years ago is no small feat.

How do you guys do it? All gambling is one of those things that most everyone who's ever tried it feels like they're GOOD AT. How many people do we all know who find out we play poker and start talking about how they're "good" at craps or roulette...or how every time their aunt goes to Vegas, she comes back having made money on Pai Gow.

How do you convince those people to see the light about what it is we do? Or do you even care if you're seen as "respectable" by certain people? Does it bother you when some people you associate with see you and the degenerate slots addict as the same or similar?

[Ron Burgundy]

It's pretty simple: How the hell do I pay my rent and all my bills if I don't have a job and play poker all day? And if they still don't believe me, they can kiss my ass. I don't play poker to prove anything to anyone.

That guy blowing every paycheck at a gas station slot machine = OMG DEPRESSING

[HajiShirazu]

I am not a big-time high stakes player but most people started to believe me about the whole +EV thing after I hadn't had a job in college for 2 or 3 years but never had to ask anybody for money. If you are a balla just pay cash for big purchases and have your friends see them.
Most people are stupid and just don't get it. This includes most of our politicians, most of whom went to top schools where you are supposed to have to be smart to get in. It might be poor education, stereotypes, or just laziness, but these days so many people fear anything even remotely related to math/logic that it is better to simply give up on this.

[Ron Burgundy]

Most non-gamblers will always lump all forms of gambling together, because they don't understand it, and don't make any effort to understand it. And there's always going to be at least some form of negative stigma attached to gambling and poker. You're going to have to learn to deal with it.

[roy_miami]

I don't know if its possible to reason with an addict but if you want to give a simple demonstration, roll a 6 sided dice, you get 1-4 he gets 5 and 6. See if he'll take the bet. Or use a deck of cards. You win if its 2-9, he wins T-A.

[MicroBob]

I think Sammy needs new friends.

People I know are usually fairly quick to associate it with something like the ups and downs of the stock-market which I think is more accurate.

I don't know many people who associate it with somebody who plays the slots.

[ToNYlol]

Try explaining this to the people at the Foxwoods BJ tables that believe in the "flow of the cards" or whether or not the last person's (3rd base) actions really affect their win/loss in the long run.

You'll never be able to explain +EV to people who have been brainwashed their entire lives that gambling in general is a nasty and evil thing. Especially to the people who believe in Voodoo Gambling (DON'T STAND BEHIND ME OR I'LL LOSE!). Just let them believe what they want and move on.

On a further note I think the hardest area for +EV players is explaining to family/loved ones what exactly a "downswing" is. To them, there is no difference of a downswing and compulsive behavior, especially if they believe in any of Voodoo.

[Ken_AA]

I have trouble explaing to people why you don't win every time you sit at a table. Sample size is the hardest thing for people I talk to about it to understand.

Try explaining casino whoring. Thats nearly impossible.

Ken

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Sammy needs new friends.

People I know are usually fairly quick to associate it with something like the ups and downs of the stock-market which I think is more accurate.

I don't know many people who associate it with somebody who plays the slots.

[/ QUOTE ]

MY close friends, in addition to my parents, fiancee, and close family all get it. Now, with some of them, it took quite a bit of explaining for them to get it.

But I have an uncle who refuses to believe I'm doing anything but the equivalent of playing online blackjack (he keeps telling my mom that I'm eventually going to lose it all and that she's going to have to pick up the pieces of my life). And I also have friends of friends (most of them that originate from my fiancee's friends) who come from the middle of nowhere (as my uncle does) who don't understand and refuse to believe no matter what you tell them.

I'm not saying that no one in my life understands what I do for a living...I'm just saying there are certain people who do not understand AT ALL no matter what I seem to say to them...and I was wondering if there was a way to help the more ignorant to "get it."

None of this used to be very important to me, and to be honest, it isn't something I sit up thinking about even now. But I'm about to get married and we're planning our futures together and there are times it really bugs ME that my fiancee feels scared to tell her boss what it is I do for a living....and that based on some of the reactions I've gotten, I don't blame her for feeling that way. That's just one example.

[MicroBob]

I guess I don't go into many of the wrong details, or maybe I have smarter friends/relatives, or maybe I simply explain things better or more simply.

I mention stuff about how much I study and that my advantage over other players is really pretty small. On a single day I can lose of course...even longer than that...but over the long-run I'm sure to be a winner. But those down-swings where you are getting clobbered definitely aren't fun.

But I usually win on 60% of my days and lose on 40% of my days (this is completely made up...but it's a concept they can understand).

Something like that anyway.

I've also been known to move my hand up and down to simulate a graph when describing the crazy short-term variance that ends up in a profit in the long-run.
When they can envision a graph that sometimes drives home the point, "Ohhhh....so you don't ALWAYS win. Sometimes you win. And sometimes you lose. I get it!!"


Sigh, I don't know. People ask me questions about it and usually don't get all weird on me about some roulette-martingale system they use.

Most of my friends are non-gamblers though so they aren't going to have many martingale type stories to share.


I don't have any friends or acquaintances who would gamble away so much money at a gas-station playing really bad games like the person described in the OP.


I've blown off some other people. Like some guy who was talking to me and swore that his friend won 75% of his football bets (any sports-handicapper can tell you this is impossible) and I should get together with him because we are both gamblers.
meh.

But most people who have no previous knowledge of what I do usually end up equating it with the ups and downs of the stock-market or just want to know how the players get their money online in the first place, etc.