Exploiting a 35/20/2 player

[Todd]

In a number of thread in one of the NL boards, several of the guys got together to begin a discussion of how one might exploit a player with specific tendencies (like always c-betting no matter what, or PFR on the button with any 2), with an eye to helping everyone focus on identifying these trends, and being able to exploit them.

So based on a post from Absolution about 6-Max players who are 35/20/2, lets try start a discussion on how a thinking, aware player might go about exploiting the playing tendencies of this type of player.

I would propose (if this works at all) that we not limit this discussion to only 6-Max, since so many of us play full ring as well.

So what say you. You are directly opposite from a 35/20/2 player, so neither has position on the other.

How do you tailor you play versus him, to your benefit?

ANy thoughts?

[milesdyson]

I was going to post in that thread that in general, the 35/20 player will do more exploiting to the 24/15 guy than the 24/15 guy will to the 35/20 guy.

Also the main thing you have to realize is that a good player can play 30/20+ and still play very ABC TAG poker against tighter TAGs. They defend more and steal more, but they're not getting their VPIP to increase by playing a bunch more hands against tighter players.

So how do you exploit him? If he's good, you don't. He doesn't get in bad spots against you because he knows your range fairly well. Basically you pick your spots against him just like he does against you, and you wait to get in hands with the poor players at the table.

Good "LAGs" are just TAGs who play a lot more hands against the worst players at the table. One big mistake a tighter TAG can make is judging a good LAG by his stats.

"Oh this guy 3-bet my UTG raise, but he could easily have trash."

But if you actually saw how the LAG played against you, you would say, "This guy plays exactly like I do. How does he play so many damn hands?"

[Todd]

Here is a hand from my database with a player with 30/20/3 stats, he is in the SB. Opponent was 37/15

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero folds, MP1, folds, MP2 (poster) checks, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, 2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB caps</font>, Button calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (14BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 16BB

<font color="white">
SB AcTd
Button KhJh </font>

[Todd]

Same player as previous hand 30/20/3 in BB

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (10BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (13BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: 16BB in white
<font color="white">
BB Q7o
SB AA
UTG+1 KQo </font>

[milesdyson]

That guy plays bad. Good players who play tons of hands don't play Q7o in the BB vs. an SB preflop raise. Also this guy's AF is much too high. It should barely be at 2.

The first hand preflop is standard (that some tighter TAGs probably miss), but he went too many bets on the turn.

[Todd]

I edited the first hand, he had ATo (no heart) vs. KJh.

He certainly plays bad. Just looking at his numbers doesnt tell the whole story, of course.

T

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
He certainly plays bad. Just looking at his numbers doesnt tell the whole story, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... why are you asking about exploiting someone based on stats?

Exploiting a bad aggressive player: Play passively with your good hands and get to showdown. Play aggressively (not over-aggressively) with your strong hands and hope you win. In 3-handed or more multiway pots, play straight-forward poker and don't try to manipulate the aggressive player.

Exploiting a good aggressive player: Don't try to do it unless you're great. Otherwise, just pick your spots and try to play better than 0 EV poker against him. Get your money from the weaker players.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I would propose (if this works at all) that we not limit this discussion to only 6-Max, since so many of us play full ring as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

35/20/2 player at full ring is a very different player than a 35/20/2 player at 6-max.

I play about 20/12 full ring and 27/15 6-max. If I played 20/12 6-max, I'd be a tight nit. And if I played 27/15 full ring, I would be a aggro-LAG.

[Todd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He certainly plays bad. Just looking at his numbers doesnt tell the whole story, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... why are you asking about exploiting someone based on stats?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it would be an interesting discussion, as it came up in a different thread.

Often, in the heat of battle, we only have the numbers, and not a full analysis of the villains play. (well, me anyway).

[Absolution]

I just made the 35/20/2 comment as a bit of an exaggeration. There was a post in the Small Stakes Short-handed forum about beating tough Absolute games and I think it was True that said the guy playing 32/20/2 was enough for him to sit. I think the discussion was basically about where does the money come from if 6 good aggressive players sit down.

I personally wouldn't sit in that game. It might be fun because you'd get some more complicated play, but why bother if you can sit at a table with people limping in first position and cold-calling (like Aaron [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

I honestly don't think it's that bad that your only edge comes from a guy playing slightly too loose, but I was commenting that the games have become significantly more difficult lately. When I sit down in the 0.5/1-1/2 range these days I usually have 1 or 2 other guys playing like me, maybe 1 nit playing something like 22/10/3 and then the rest all have 40+ VPIP being either too passive or too aggressive. Most still overplay post-flop severely, but I'm generally there because of 1 or 2 players now, not 5 like it used to be.