*** HOH volume 1 study group - week 3 - pages 125-195 ***

[OtZman]

Time for week 3 in our HOH study group series! I really think we've had good discussions so far. Let's keep it up!

This week, 26/02/2007 - 04/02/2007, we'll be reading and discussing pages 125-195. We'll start off with the Hand Analysis chapter and end with the five "Who's in the Pot?"
cases.

Try to only discuss what pertains to this weeks reading in this thread. If you have any questions about the study group, please post in this thread or PM me. If you want to continue discussing the first or second week, please do it in the appropriate thread:
*** HOH volume 1 study group - week 1 - page 1-62 ***
*** HOH volume 1 study group - week 2 - pages 63-124 ***

For those that have already read the book, feel free to pop in and participate in the discussion.

That's all. Enjoy!

[OtZman]

Don't know if I'm just misunderstanding or if this is an error in the book, but in the table on page 129, shouldn't it be 8 outs for two pair needing a full house or an inside straight draw? Does he mean that we have two pair on the flop and we're drawing to a full house and an inside straight, or that we're drawing to a full house and an inside straight draw? I've never heard of drawing to a draw before.

[BozMan82]

OtZman, regarding the table on p. 129:

I think the table entry about 4 outs is with respect to two totally separate situations.

If you have two pair and need to make a full house, you have 4 outs. (No additional straight draws)

If you have an inside straight draw, you have 4 outs to make the straight. (No additional draws to a full house)

I agree that the table is written somewhat confusingly.

[BozMan82]

Hand 4-8, pg. 160:

Can the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] really be counted as a full out here? That would give you a flush but also pair the board.

Hand 4-10, pgs 168-172:

Harrington says that Player D should have bet more on the turn to protect his straight from flush draws. Should Player D also have raised more on the flop? The first player to act after that raise is getting 7:1, certainly good enough to continue playing a flush draw.

Also, our OESD was drawing to either a 6 or A to make a straight. Turns out the non-club 6's and A's were dead cards for us, since Player D had already flopped a 7-high straight. In general, in situations like this, is it wise to count these outs as full outs? (Especially for the non-club A's since that is the ignorant end of the straight.)

Harrington says that a made straight by your opponents is unlikely here... why? The pot was not raised pre-flop, and there are 3 other players who got to see a cheap flop.

[OtZman]

[ QUOTE ]
OtZman, regarding the table on p. 129:

I think the table entry about 4 outs is with respect to two totally separate situations.

If you have two pair and need to make a full house, you have 4 outs. (No additional straight draws)

If you have an inside straight draw, you have 4 outs to make the straight. (No additional draws to a full house)

I agree that the table is written somewhat confusingly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aha, thanks for clearing that up.

I'll check 4-8 and 4-10 out as soon as I get there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Bryn]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4-8, pg. 160:

Can the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] really be counted as a full out here? That would give you a flush but also pair the board.



[/ QUOTE ]

Given the betting action so far do you really expect someone to have trips or two pair? Trips may have foolishly decided to slow play on the flop, but on the heart turn they have to put in a big raise to protect there hand. Two pair should never slow play that flop unless there total donks. It may not be a full out, but it's going to be at least 3/4 of an out, probably more. This is close enougth to a full out for me.

[Thomas Luice]

Just one silly question:
In basic strategy from page 179-195 if Harrington says "I will (normal) raise with x percent", how big should I raise. Double BB or 3 times?

[Bryn]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4-10, pgs 168-172:

Harrington says that Player D should have bet more on the turn to protect his straight from flush draws. Should Player D also have raised more on the flop? The first player to act after that raise is getting 7:1, certainly good enough to continue playing a flush draw.

Also, our OESD was drawing to either a 6 or A to make a straight. Turns out the non-club 6's and A's were dead cards for us, since Player D had already flopped a 7-high straight. In general, in situations like this, is it wise to count these outs as full outs? (Especially for the non-club A's since that is the ignorant end of the straight.)

Harrington says that a made straight by your opponents is unlikely here... why? The pot was not raised pre-flop, and there are 3 other players who got to see a cheap flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He certainly should have bet more on the flop. the pot is $600 before is bet, so I would have made it about $700. I think Harrington has got the pot size after his bet wrong, it should be $840, not $720.

Given player Ds min raise would anyone else go all in? This stops any higher flush draws calling and I think most of the time we have fold equity against player D on such a low flop. If we get called we should also have almost 15 outs, it's unlikly player D has a made straight.

[OtZman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4-8, pg. 160:

Can the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] really be counted as a full out here? That would give you a flush but also pair the board.



[/ QUOTE ]

Given the betting action so far do you really expect someone to have trips or two pair? Trips may have foolishly decided to slow play on the flop, but on the heart turn they have to put in a big raise to protect there hand. Two pair should never slow play that flop unless there total donks. It may not be a full out, but it's going to be at least 3/4 of an out, probably more. This is close enougth to a full out for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. Also, I think that those hands that would make a full house with another 6 are somewhat unlikely (A6, J6, 64 and 44 because they probably wouldn't have called preflop, and AA and JJ because they probably would have showed more aggression preflop).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4-10, pgs 168-172:

Harrington says that Player D should have bet more on the turn to protect his straight from flush draws. Should Player D also have raised more on the flop? The first player to act after that raise is getting 7:1, certainly good enough to continue playing a flush draw.

Also, our OESD was drawing to either a 6 or A to make a straight. Turns out the non-club 6's and A's were dead cards for us, since Player D had already flopped a 7-high straight. In general, in situations like this, is it wise to count these outs as full outs? (Especially for the non-club A's since that is the ignorant end of the straight.)

Harrington says that a made straight by your opponents is unlikely here... why? The pot was not raised pre-flop, and there are 3 other players who got to see a cheap flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He certainly should have bet more on the flop. the pot is $600 before is bet, so I would have made it about $700. I think Harrington has got the pot size after his bet wrong, it should be $840, not $720.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I also think D should've bet more on this flop.

Harrington says we have 15 potential outs, so we can't really be sure that we'll win when we make a straight/flush. I'd be extra cautious if a 6 hit, because that's gives us a really shaky straight. I'd be more happy to see an A than a 6 on the turn.

BozMan82, I also feel a straight is not that impossible here for the same reasons as you. D also have position here that makes it even more likely.

[ QUOTE ]

Given player Ds min raise would anyone else go all in? This stops any higher flush draws calling and I think most of the time we have fold equity against player D on such a low flop. If we get called we should also have almost 15 outs, it's unlikly player D has a made straight.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing. We're getting called 100% of the time if D has a straight, and we will be behind; a set will call 100% of the time, and we'll be behind; two pair might fold but will probably call since the stacks are so short, here we'll be 50/50; a pair might fold, and if we're called we're favorite to win against all pairs but AA.

With both BB and B calling I think there's some chance one of them have a better flush draw. I was also thinking we might be able to chase them away if we push, and take the pot right here, or get called by D and have many outs. At the same time I think it's quite likely that D has quite a strong hand here considering he raised our bet and two callers, so I'm not really sure.


I found a few of errors in hand 4-9, nothing big, but worth mentioning:
- p. 166: It's written that the Big Blind folds on the flop, should be Small Blind.
- p. 167: Harrington takes an example where E holds J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the turn, which is impossible since the 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] came on the flop.
- p. 167, last sentence: "A set of kings...". I thought it was only a set when you had a PP and hit one card on the board, and trips when one of your hole cards hit two cards on the board.

[OtZman]

In "Case No. 1: No one has entered the pot yet." (p. 179-187) Harrington advocates open limping as much as 50% of the time with some hands. In the µNL and SSNL forums open limping is generally considered to be a bad play. This might be a difference between tournaments and cash games.

Thoughts?