3-bet the flop or call and c/r turn?

[Str8Fish]

This hand is from a recent review. I'd say that on this board, which is very drawy not 3-betting this flop would be a mistake... but am I wrong? Does anyone just call the raise, then c/r the turn?

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

[SuperWhale]

Grunch?

I agree with you on three-betting the flop, with the villain from the BB his range could be pretty big and would pick up draws on this board.

If you try to go for a check raise on the turn he will often check behind for the free card, so get the money in now while you are ahead.

[jstill]

well i know what i said :-P

I dont think either line is a "mistake". We are in position here and do have the nut bdfd which makes just calling even less bad, if it is to begin with.

I think Id even be fine oop here calling a raise to check-raise the turn unless I thought villain often raised for a freecard or could/would raise and ck behind with a decent ace or could find a fold to a turn cr with a weak ace (most cant).

One thing worth thinking about is which line he is more likely to pay off. Its going to be much harder for him to find a fold at any point with ur line I think than facing a turn raise. But if hes showing down the same range of hands either way theres really little difference.

One factor I think thats worth considering others may not here is metagame and information concealing.

If ur always 3betting check-raises in position on Kxy Axy Qxy boards with TP or better and every other time folding or peeling a hand here like KQ and folding the turn ur gonna become a bit exploitable to anyone u regularly play with any aggression who is paying attention. Again this doesnt matter much vs many small stakes players ud be unlikely to play more than a few hundred hands with.

I just like to make people pay a bit extra to F with me on these kind boards, force them to fire multiple barrels if they want to do it with air which is why i often call and raise the turn or river. If he'll often ck call down from the turn or could find a fold with some weaker aces to a turn raise I probably 3bet the flop or call, call the turn and raise the river on occasion.

I understand ud prefer to take that line on a dryer board, but I dont think he ever doesnt charge himself UI on the turn if hes got QJ or clubs and this is probably more often an A or T id say than a fd or str draw at these limits vs loose passives. And its not like a club J or Q on the turn is the absolute worst thing in the world, plus our equity goes up quite a bit on the turn. and vs all the hands hes gonna go into calldown mode with anyways vs ur flop 3bet, we get an extra sb by waiting.

[jstill]

[ QUOTE ]

If you try to go for a check raise on the turn he will often check behind for the free card, so get the money in now while you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're actually in position here the thread title is just a typo I think.

[TheWunderkind]

I often call this and c/r the Turn if i know villain is betting out if i saw him raisng and taking a freecard i will always 3 bet, also i woudl alwys 3 bet on this board becausei dont want to checkraise a ugly Turncard and take a bet if he made his draw.

but as jstill said dont do even 3betting the Flop if the board isnt that drawy take the c c/r Turn line this prevents you from people bluffing or semibluffing and you can makeem pay at the bigger streets also more villains will call your Flop 3 bet with second pair and fold the Turn UI but if you just call and you can checkraise them it put them a little bit on tilt and they will also most of the time peel the River. I like both line and im going to take the Turn c/r line more often since i realized i made villains folding to much in the past but in this board as i said i would 3bet the Flop.