can you profitably play LAG in low buy-in SnGs?

[icemanjmw]

Hi all. First forgive me if this has been discussed but I didn't find it in my search.

Lately I've been 4 tabling the $5.50 STT on Pokerstars. Basically just trying to build a big enough roll so I can move up. At first I was playing uber-tight early, and pushing late. I noticed that I ended up short stacked too often as I wasn't picking up any big hands early so I was getting bubbled a lot. Now I know that may have been variance as I only played a couple hundred like that, and I did win some money so I'm not saying that way was bad for me. However lately I've been playing a little looser early, raising with big suited cards, suited connectors, AJ+, TT+ in late position. I have picked up some pots playing this way, and doubled up a few times when I flopped a monster. Of course I've also flopped some monster draws that I got it all in on the flop with and been busted early. Overall though, and again I admit I have only played about a hundred this way, but this style feels more comfortable to me and I feel like I have a much better shot of getting to the bubble as the large stack and being able to abuse that advantage. This has resulted in a higher percentage of wins for me instead of just cashing.

So my question for long time successful SnG player, can this strategy work in the long term or am I just running extremly hot right now?

FWIW I don't feel like I'm making any "crazy" moves and almost all of my hands are being played from good position.

[eurythmech]

*that sound just before a prop bet is announced*

[DevinLake]

What do you think are the requirements for successful lag play?

What do you think is the most common leak of your opponents?

[icemanjmw]

Well the big leaks that I've been trying to exploit are players who call too much preflop with marginal hands, then give up the pot when they miss (a good percentage of the time). Also, I've been able to double up a good number of times from players who can't let TP go when I flop a well disguised two-pair, straight, etc.

The third thing is that oftentimes if when I do pick up my bigger hands I have been getting a lot more action on them, for example if I pick up AA or even AK right after I've raised 2 out of the last 3 hands. Some players are of course tired of being pushed around and make a stand with hands like AT or KQ.

[redsoxsalty]

even though it goes against conventional strategy, i think you can definitely play LAG in the early levels if you pay attention and have the ability to get off hands. when i used to play more, i used to play this type of LAG style, and found it profitable at the 5's and 11's.

i think i started playing that way after Strassa wrote an articulate post (maybe a year ago or so, on his blog) about his LAG style in SnG's. the gist was that he preferred to really mix it up at low blind levels, because not only could he stack players that didn't get off outdrawn hands, but because he developed a particular table image that led to opponents calling him down light. he was obviously playing different limits, but i found his style quite workable.

gl.

[TruFloridaGator]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the big leaks that I've been trying to exploit are players who call too much preflop with marginal hands, then give up the pot when they miss (a good percentage of the time). Also, I've been able to double up a good number of times from players who can't let TP go when I flop a well disguised two-pair, straight, etc.

The third thing is that oftentimes if when I do pick up my bigger hands I have been getting a lot more action on them, for example if I pick up AA or even AK right after I've raised 2 out of the last 3 hands. Some players are of course tired of being pushed around and make a stand with hands like AT or KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

And your playing the 5.50s on Stars? I have a hard time believing you about players giving up their hands too easy at 5.50s.

[diditmyway]

in the regular speed sng's you can play mariginal hands for cheap, flop monsters and stack people. Raising PF with suited connectors etc is not so good. pots tend to be familypots at 5.50. Limp suited aces/suited connectors, but stay away from hands like KTs,KQ,JQ,AT,AJ etc they are trouble

[DevinLake]

Ok, this is a topic that comes up a lot. The conventional strategy is tight early. Why is this? Because it is most likely the most profitable strategy for the majority of the posters. Secondly, it is probably best to advise someone asking these type questions to play a tight strategy, because they are most likely new to the game.

A lag style is going to take more skill, which only experience can really provide. Hand reading, texture of the board, player tendencies are things you get better at predicting while you play. However, being a little off on these things can cost you a lot in sngs. And we know from equity modelling that chips lost early in a sit n go are worth more than the chips gained.

[ QUOTE ]
Well the big leaks that I've been trying to exploit are players who call too much preflop with marginal hands, then give up the pot when they miss (a good percentage of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely the goal of lag play. Attack the weak-tight player that plays poorly both preflop and post flop. Again, you have to be able to identify these players very quickly. Because being wrong can be very costly.

I asked the question "What do you think is the number one leak for your opponents?". Well, that would be calling too much. This is the enemy of the LAG if it is true to postflop play as well. Some people will call down with any piece of the board. You have to watch out for these people.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I've been able to double up a good number of times from players who can't let TP go when I flop a well disguised two-pair, straight, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something you have to be really self critical about. How much are you gaining here? The players you are doubling up off of, are the same ones that are calling too much making it difficult to steal pots postflop.

Also, players tend to remember the 5% of the times they flop big and win a big pot and forget 95% of pots that they did not. So, with limited implied odds in sit n goes, the profitability of 'disguised' hands is questionable.

[ QUOTE ]
The third thing is that oftentimes if when I do pick up my bigger hands I have been getting a lot more action on them, for example if I pick up AA or even AK right after I've raised 2 out of the last 3 hands. Some players are of course tired of being pushed around and make a stand with hands like AT or KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be over valuing how much of your action is coming from your LAGing it up. I see TAGs getting played back at all the time with these very same hands.

To conclude, I am not saying which is a better style. I'd say TAG is best for the majority of people, but maybe LAG play has more potential if you are good at it. If you feel it's the right style for you and are showing some long term good results with it, I don't see why you would change.

I just wanted to write this to highlight some of the issues and pitfalls involved with LAG play, and maybe generate some discussion from those that know better than I.

[Slim Pickens]

A lot of people run hot, tear up the lowest limits, and think they're the gods' gift to poker. Of course you can stack someone if you 3-bet preflop with 76s and flop the nut straight, but how are you playing it on a flop of 269r? Oh... now did that preflop raise and bet into the preflop 3-bettor come from TT or a desperate missed AK? Will the TT fold if you push? Good luck trying to figure all of that out after playing ten hands against a player who may or may not think a straight beats a flush.

Playing hands sub-optimally, from a purely mathematical hot/cold showdown value perspective, becomes profitable only when your play disguises your hand well enough to trick opponents into making even bigger sub-optimal plays because of that misinformation. You can never do this at low levels because most of your opponents aren't using any information external to their own hands. They make huge mistakes all by themselves and your "tricky" is only coincidental. Basically, playing loose is a mistake, but it's far smaller than most mistakes people make, so you can overcome it.

[Shaver67]

Excellent post Devin.

I'll add a few points since I think it is a worth while discussion.

- it seems the majority of these posts come from the smallest buyins over 300-500 game samples. This obv has some inherent problems, one is that anyone who's played 5k+ SnGs knows you'll run 35-40% over a few hundred from time to time (11-33s) then playing an identical game run 0 over your next few hundred. It's been said before but it bears repeating, just because you started your career with some positive variance it does not mean you have reinvented the wheel. If anyone cares to test their "new ideas" just keep climbing the ladder stakes-wise, if you're right you'll make a Good2cu/Raptor-esque rise but the vast majority will get wiped out before they get to 3 figure buyins.

- a successful lag style is based on time and chips. It takes time to correctly read your opponents so that your "skill" edge can take its effect, similarly it takes time for them to incorrectly read you. It takes a lot of chips to play a lot of pots- one's post flop "skill" allows them to lose predominatly small-medium size pots and win medium-large ones. In SnGs you have neither time nor chips- lose a couple small medium sized pots in the first couple orbits/levels and you go from 50bb to 17bb. Hell win those same pots and you go from 50 to 34.

- pushbotting correctly in SnG lategame involves pushing alot wider than is intuitively correct to the average poker player. I.E. being "laggier" than "normal" making it an enormous advantage for those schooled in ICM to come into the lategame with a "tight" image. Obv being seen as laggy when you reach a point where it is the correct strategy is a bad thing.