The Preflop Overbet

[David Sklansky]

I know several successful no limit hold em players who like to make their preflop raises a lot larger than usual to manipulate weak players into giving them action on future hands. My question is whether such raises can ever be right in a field of good players. For instance in a nine handed game, populated by all relatively tough players, can it ever be right to open under the gun for 2000 if the blinds are 100 200, there is no ante, and everyone's stack is 10,000?

And if a good player did make that play where you were one of his opponents, what would be your strategy in various positions?

[gwhiz_612]

Assuming a tough table I think this could be a decent play with top notch hands of course hoping that your opponent comes in with a good but second best hand. Then there is the post flop play. What would be the best line? Cbet, Check raise all in(<- I like this one) or check fold a missed flop?In the long run I dont know if this would be a profitable play unless you narrowed your range that you made this play with. If you get called which would be rarer than being raised you will tend to be showing down against premium hands.

If I were against an opponent that made this play and it seemed out of character it would slow me down quite a bit. Implied odds would be considered of course but to get involved against him my hand would have to be better than usual to play.

[jkkkk]

Assuming everyone is of the same ability and there is no special sort of metagame going on, making it 2k preflop would not be an optimal play, decent players usually overbet preflop to cut down on other players implied odds with 100BB+ stacks.

[Karabiner]

It's not about not giving people implied odds. This is not what is being discussed. We're talking about a MASSIVE over bet. It's a tactic I use a lot in online MTTs, from time to time if I pick up an fairly big hand in late position (JJ, AK eg) then I may move all in for lets say 10,000 when blinds might be 400/800 for example. You will be amazed out many calls I get with Ace rag or mini pairs. People simply don't believe you have a hand, it can be a great way to get paid.

I'd say it may work in a tough cash game too, as no matter how good the assessor is it's very hard to put people on a monster when they over bet. Facing the tactic however I personaly would be reluctent from any position to get involved with a less than premium hand (jacks or better). In a cash game with the levels you spoke, you're probably gonna play your whole stack on this hand. I would be mucking AQ and 99 and the like regardless, and then try not to dwell on the situation thereafter.

[El Diablo]

David,

It can be very good if you are good at reading how angry people are.

[Syberduh]

[ QUOTE ]
Then there is the post flop play

[/ QUOTE ]

What post flop play?

[ QUOTE ]
Check raise all in(<- I like this one)

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand, stronger than perhaps A-high, are you going to make fold with a CR all-in when your opponent is almost by definition always getting better than 2:1? If your smart opponents know that you only bet this way with top notch hands, who would be stupid enough to give you action for 1/5 of his stack Preflop?

This is a trick question, right? I don't see how this play can possibly be good (from UTG, no less!) unless your opponents are stupidly bad or unless you are terrible at playing AA/KK from OOP and you want to just pick up the blinds / make your only postflop decision absurdly simple: to be shove or CR/shove.

[Karabiner]

Online a massive UTG raises rarely means monster. AK, TT at best. So if you are playing up a level this sort of bet UTG with a better hand may be a great disguise tactic. Like it is when you're in late when it reeks of a steal to the average player.

[ALawPoker]

Can it? Sure. "Good" players all have their patterns and tendencies as well as their flaws. Good players get drunk, good players get tired, and good players go on tilt.

Is there usually a better raise? Ya.

The bet in itself is not efficient though. So if you're talking about a hypothetical where the other players react optimally, then no I don't think there's ever a time to make such a play. But the truth is even the best players make mistakes, so however often you should make the raise just depends on exactly what the other players are doing.

[sandman-54]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not about not giving people implied odds. This is not what is being discussed. We're talking about a MASSIVE over bet. It's a tactic I use a lot in online MTTs, from time to time if I pick up an fairly big hand in late position (JJ, AK eg) then I may move all in for lets say 10,000 when blinds might be 400/800 for example. You will be amazed out many calls I get with Ace rag or mini pairs. People simply don't believe you have a hand, it can be a great way to get paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't what's being discussed either. Its about whether or not a large pre-flop raise could manipulate a tough opponent into calling on a future hand.

The most important question to consider is will it be effective enough to merit the risk on the individual hand?

I think I might consider this particular play UTG. I think this play can only even be considered when you aren't a familiar face to the people you're playing with and should obviously only be done with a trash hand.

[Karabiner]

It can manipulate both. A call that hand or later. Dress it up how you want it breeds suspicion. Which is great, if you have 'it'.