Stud high: hidden aces

[King Yao]

It seems every year around this time after the football season ends, I get the urge to go down to Foxwoods and play some stud. I keep thinking I'm going to go there two or three times per week for the next few months and really dig into stud, but the long 3-hour roundtrip always poops me out after the second or third trip down there. A few days ago, I made my first trip down there since last April...hopefully I will get motivated and go at least once a week this year. I played about 4 hours, and overall, I think I played poorly. A couple of mistakes that were obvious to me after the fact..and probably other mistakes that I didn't catch. But that's the process of learning. Anyway, here's one hand I remembered and was not sure if I raised too late, too early or just right.

75-150 Foxwoods Stud High only

I have a 5 showing and hidden aces.

Player on my left is aggressive on third and has a Q showing, so I think there is a chance he'll complete the bet if no one else does.

Player two to my right is fairly loose and brings it in with a 3.

Player to my right is also fairly loose and calls the bring-in with a 6.

I limp for the bring-in.

Player on my left completes with a Q. Everyone else folds to the bring-in who calls, the next player calls and I call also.

Fourth street (no one has suited cards)
Two to my right: 37
One to my right: 6K
Me: 59
One to my left: Q2

The King checks. I check. One to my left bets. Two to my right calls. One to my right calls. Now I raise. They all call.

On Fifth street I hit a 5 to pair my door card. I bet and all fold.

What do you think?

[cgrohman]

I dislike 3rd and 4th. You want to play AA against as few opponents as possible. On 3rd, I complete hoping that the Q raises and the limper/BI will fold for the 2 bets back to them. By just limpeing, you are giving the limper/BI better odds to call.

On 4th, again I want to get the pot heads up. Given the positioning, a c/r is not the way to do this. Again, I bet and hope the Q raises, driving the other 2 players out.

5th is good.

[iamastud]

There are some times when a slow play is good and there are times when a slow play is good to vary ones play. But in general it is not the correct play and against a field of 3 others you do not put yourself in a good spot. You had 2 opportunities to chek raise on 3rd and 4tha dn you declined. You need to do the action fast here and take control of this hand ebfore it controls you. As it turned out you paired your door card which scared everyone out. But things could have gone differently.

Aces are great. It is not great in a field of 4. Save deception and varying plays for the occasional play, not your norm. So what if you give your hand away by reraising or betting. The object of the game is to win the most money while risking the least as opposed to playing the trickiest one can play. Some people get caught up in cuteness.

[Sevenfold]

This line is fine and a bit more creative than you're getting credit for.


Given your description of the Q player, raising your aces possibly lets him get away from a (9,10)Q or the like. It also lets you see 4th street before giving your hand away.

Given that all who called the Q raise would have called yours, the same amount of $$ went in on 3rd, maybe more. I'm not convinced that the Q would have 2 bet it if you raised.

So now you can do what you like on 4th. Your description of the boards is exactly how I would tend to look at it (and hope to see it). Scattered and non-suited. Now let them all play their skip flushes and small pairs for what they think is 1 more sb, before you whack them one more time.

Waiting till 5th is no good, too many will fold for 1 bet anyway, and you risk a check round depending.

Well done.

[Red_Diamond]

It's somewhat of a shame really. Having aces had nothing to do with you winning here.

[Jeffage]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey King,

I think it's pretty bad. You should raise 3rd and hope the queen reraises (or at least you limit the field). Then 4th is poor too - you have another chance to bet into a probable raise, but instead you decide to "trap" the field by checkraising, building a huge pot in which no one is now going to fold and people will probably have a correct price to chase just about anything to the river. You need to consider whether your hand plays best heads up or multiway and make an effort to achieve that status. You also should consider how the hand will play based on what action you take on 4th and whether you will be able to eliminate people (as you should want to in this hand) or get them to make mathematical mistakes later.

Jeff

[Sevenfold]

[ QUOTE ]
It's somewhat of a shame really. Having aces had nothing to do with you winning here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm-----he doesn't play the hand without them????

[Jeffage]

You do realize that your 5th street bet will now be giving opponents close to 8-1 odds correct? This is not a good plan with one pair of aces. If King had rolled up trips, I would say the play was excellent. This is not the case and this hand was not played optimally.

Jeff

[King Yao]

Thanks for all the comments. Thanks Jeff. I know crap about stud, so I really appreciate the constructive criticsm. Making these posts and learning from them will get me motivated to make more trips and play more, that's good.

Follow-up questions:

[ QUOTE ]
You should raise 3rd and hope the queen reraises (or at least you limit the field).

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I described the player to my left with the Q as an aggressive third-street raiser, but maybe my description was not full enough. I don't think he would have re-raised me if I had raised unless he had split Qs or anothe quality hand...but I do think he would have completed with a wide variety of hands, including many that he would have folded if I completed. I was not in a steal position as someone else had limped in after the bring-in. If I had completed the bet, I'm announcing I do have something (not saying that is definitely bad though), which means unless he does have split Qs or another quality hand, he may be gone. I'm reading some responses that assume he'll re-raise me, but he'd only do that if he had split Qs or another quality hand...I can't count on that, can i? See, I was hoping he'd complete the hand with a hand that he would have folded if I had completed.

So...let's assume for a sec that he'd fold if I had completed. The other two guys are clearly going to call and we'd be three into 4th street for one bet. Is that preferable to four into 4th street for one bet?

As for limiting the field...why is this such a good thing? I don't mind having a 40% chance of winning a 4-way pot compared to a 65% chance of winning a 2-way pot (I haven't done the math....just throwing out some numbers). It isn't so bad to lower ones chances of winning if the bigger sized pot will adjust it so the EV is higher. Of course, it could be obvious to you that the EV is higher if the field is limited when I have the hidden Aces...it's not obvious to me. Can you state the obvious for this stud newbie please?

[ QUOTE ]

Then 4th is poor too - you have another chance to bet into a probable raise,

[/ QUOTE ]

again, I don't see why the assumption of the probable raise. If I had bet out on 4th, split Qs may have raised, but if he didn't have split Qs, he's definitely not raising. So I'm looking at it as: if I bet out, he's just calling or folding...and 4th street is only going to see one bet max.

[Jeffage]

Hey King,

[ QUOTE ]
I know I described the player to my left with the Q as an aggressive third-street raiser, but maybe my description was not full enough. I don't think he would have re-raised me if I had raised unless he had split Qs or anothe quality hand...but I do think he would have completed with a wide variety of hands, including many that he would have folded if I completed.

[/ QUOTE ]

His reraise is not required for you to eliminate players by raising. Your raise would likely fold him and possibly the bring-in as well, making this a heads-up confrontation. Also, since you have a small card, he may reraise with less than queens (maybe something like 9h10hQc thinking a pair will be good).

[ QUOTE ]
If I had completed the bet, I'm announcing I do have something (not saying that is definitely bad though), which means unless he does have split Qs or another quality hand, he may be gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely - you are announcing you have something. If the raise announces you have a large pocket pair, you are doing far too little raising. Also, if your opponent does have queens, a bunch of pair, a medium pocket pair, a decent three flush, etc., he is likely to make it two bets, limiting the field. And if he doesn't have a hand and folds, fine - he may have folded for just the bring in if he has garbage and you have no info about his hand. You should definitely raise third - you get more money in with the best hand and likely will thin the field which benefits this type of hand.

[ QUOTE ]

So...let's assume for a sec that he'd fold if I had completed. The other two guys are clearly going to call and we'd be three into 4th street for one bet. Is that preferable to four into 4th street for one bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the bring-in will call if you raise? There is a decent chance he will fold. And yes, I'd rather see 4th street either heads-up or three ways for one FULL bet than four ways for the bring-in. Just because this guy happened to raise this one hand when you limped doesn't mean this will happen everytime. And when you raise you have the benefit that he might reraise, making it heads up in a situation where you can have the tactical advantage (since you'll act last and he'll think he's best).

[ QUOTE ]
As for limiting the field...why is this such a good thing? I don't mind having a 40% chance of winning a 4-way pot compared to a 65% chance of winning a 2-way pot (I haven't done the math....just throwing out some numbers). It isn't so bad to lower ones chances of winning if the bigger sized pot will adjust it so the EV is higher. Of course, it could be obvious to you that the EV is higher if the field is limited when I have the hidden Aces...it's not obvious to me. Can you state the obvious for this stud newbie please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a math guy (and I know you are after reading your wonderful book). But I will say this - your EV will not be higher. This is because, by playing the hand as you did, your opponents will not be making mistakes on the big bet streets by chasing down with anything. So since they are not making mathematical errors, you don't gain. Note that, with the way you played 4th, people are getting 8-1 odds to call your 5th street bet. Add in the fact that your chance of winning the pot has gone down - if eliminating players will substantially increase how often you win the pot (as it will in this situation) you should play the hand in such a manner as to make that happen.

One example of this from 2p2's book - you have something like (A 3) A and are last to act before the bring-in. A deuce brings it in, a five calls, a seven calls, a ten calls and a queen calls. You should just call. Raising will only serve to inflate the pot and will not serve to eliminate players (which would benefit you). You will simply prevent them from making a mistake later due to the inflated pot (perhaps you could checkraise 4th hoping the queen would bet, etc).

[ QUOTE ]
again, I don't see why the assumption of the probable raise. If I had bet out on 4th, split Qs may have raised, but if he didn't have split Qs, he's definitely not raising. So I'm looking at it as: if I bet out, he's just calling or folding...and 4th street is only going to see one bet max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are looking at this wrong - he raised everyone on 3rd with the queen up. You have a weak board and are leading into him on 4th. He will likely raise with any hand he would have played that way on third in an effort to get it heads up with what he prob sees as a possible lower pair. Your donk will not make him fear a monster, particularly with how you played third street.

Jeff

P.S. Come on down to Borg tomorrow - I might be sitting this same game. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]