How many ways did I butcher KT?

[private joker]

Live 20/40.

Reads:

SB: a bit too loose, a bit too aggro PF, makes bad post-flop mistakes, doesn't think clearly
BB: very loose donk, chases hopelessly
limper 1: loose-passive fish
limper 2: loose-passive fish
Button: never played with him before, and he's been involved in the fewest pots at the table. He's older, quiet, and conservative, and my read is ROCK tight, reserving the option to change once I see more of him. However, the only major pot I've seen him show down is when he raised PF and got involved in some raising and betting and then calling on a board of (773)(x)(x) against the BB who held 73. Rocky turned over AA and shrugged.

On to the hand...

2 Limpers limp, I pick up KTo in the CO. I decide to limp along because a) raising will do virtually nothing, since button is likely to fold anyway, blinds will rarely fold, and bloating the pot with this hand isn't wise; and b) KT is a bit too much hand in this spot to fold since I'll likely have the button against 4 bad players.

Well, the button finally plays a pot, and limps behind me. The SB raises, we all call. 6 to the flop for 12 SBs.

Flop comes out K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I have no heart.

SB bets, BB calls, limpers fold, I decide to call and raise many turn cards. Button calls.

Turn is the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I bet, Button raises, blinds fold. I think and call.

River is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, Button bets, I fold.

Let me have it.

[HOWMANY]

Please fold the turn.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Please fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]


Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you've got an accurate read, I kinda like this thought. A lot of these older, nitty players check the river through unless they are sure they've got it.

[benwood]

What about(1)raising the flop,&(2)calling the river?

[Faststan]

The man probably does not have KJs, K5s or J5s or he would have raised the flop.His most likely holding is K7s.But KTs,K9s,K8s is a possibilty.But you have never played with him before.I might fold this against some rocks I know.But in this case I think you have to call the river getting 13-1.

[mikelow]

Well you could fold preflop, as KTo plays so poorly in many situations, especially multiway. This is a raise or fold situation, IMO, and I lean to a fold. (Have you gotten looser? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

On the flop, your call is acceptable as there is only the button still to act. I'd fold the turn raise, trusting your read on the button. Save a bet.

[jogger08152]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes out K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I have no heart.

SB bets, BB calls, limpers fold, I decide to call and raise many turn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise. There's no guarantee you'll get bet into on the turn, and there are enough scare and semi-scare cards that can fall off that you should raise now. Not to mention (at risk of sounding results-driven), you might knock villain off a "drawing-to-two-pair" type hand and buy the button at the same time.

[ QUOTE ]
Button calls.

Turn is the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I bet, Button raises, blinds fold. I think and call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Button could have picked up a double gutshot with T9 or hold hearts (including several combinations that turned a gutshot to go with their flush draw), semibluffing in either case; in addition, because of the passive way you've played the hand, he can hold a hand similar to yours (KT or K9s)or even a Jack and be raising what he thinks is the best hand; or he can have you beat with a variety of stuff (J7s, a set, KJ, etc). Calling here is good, in that folding is terrible (the only hands you really dislike being a better King and a set).

Edit: Raising to punish a semi-bluff is also better than folding, though based on the AA vs. 73 scenario you described earlier that, I doubt that you'll induce a fold from a hand that has you beat, so I would be apt to call here. [Note: If anybody has thoughts on whether this is too timid on my part, I'd love to hear 'em. Thanks guys.]

[ QUOTE ]
River is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, Button bets, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your hesitation on the turn call (followed by your courageous river-check [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) is going to cause a bluff here with everything from 23 up - maybe even a value bet from a Jack.

To summarize, you've induced the bluff, the hearts have missed (though the double-gut did get there) and now you're folding. Absent a read you didn't share in your post - and probably even with one - this is a disastrous fold, easily your worst decision during the hand.

Best regards,
Jogger

[AlexSem]

assuming a raise does not mean KJ for sure, you have to call, although this smells like 77 or even 55. It's really thin if you're not hopign he has KT, K9 or 75, K5, J5 you get the point.

It all depends on your read really and I'm not sure what advice anyoen can offer.

Folding KTo preflop in a 6 handed game where people give action would be a big lol.

[jogger08152]

Out of curiosity, how do you guys get KJ and set as villain's most likely holdings here? KJ offsuit is a dubious call preflop (as is suited: villain ought to raise this instead), and nobody has shown any aggression till the turn, where suddenly hero steps out on a blank. Are you honestly saying you belive a solid player with position won't find a raise with AJ or better (or semi-bluff with a good draw) here?

I don't think hero has 80% pot equity or anything, but nothing about the play so far has my set-radar screaming red alert yet.