2/4 Black Tens

Pominos · #1 02-10-2006, 12:39 PM

Ok, I have been lurking here for over a year and thought it was time to start posting some hands...
I have been a winning player since for as long as I have been keeping count of my playing (january 2005), but the last months have been really slow, so I though it was time to start doing something about it. Here's my 'out of the closet' hand:

Reads:

CO seems to be a decent (TAGish) player, but have no real reads.
MP2 is a regular weak player who goes too far.
SB is the reason I play the table. He's a LAG, who always goes to the river, bluffs more than half his hands and also has a twist: he likes to bluff-bet (all streets) and then fold the river. (I never fold a hand vs this guy with pair or better)

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with : T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] : T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (19SB, 6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises

Thoughts on all streets welcome?

Fat Nicky · #2 02-10-2006, 12:56 PM

I'm not sure, but this seems like a raise of fold situation to me. The turn checking through makes it seem like to me that no one has an A. The LAG SB bet, and facing the field with 2 bets on the river, will make it difficult for the TAG CO to call with something like KK or QQ. I don't think we need to worry too much about MP2 based on his description, he might even call with a 9.

The only thing that worries me about the turn checking through is the fact that someone with an A may have been worried about a check/raise from you since you 3-bet the turn. The 3rd [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] might have also scared them into betting. I don't see anyone throwing away an A in a 18BB pot, but I guess anything is possible.

This river is interesting.

psuasskicker · #3 02-10-2006, 01:11 PM

Honestly I think it's pretty obvious what you're doing, and I think if I were CO the only better hand I could find myself folding is JJ, and then only if I think you're weak enough that you wouldn't cap PF with KK or QQ. Pretty much anything else I can beat you with I think is a pretty easy call if not even a reraise if I think SB LAG will call with a crappy 9.

- C -

Fat Nicky · #4 02-10-2006, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think it's pretty obvious what you're doing, and I think if I were CO the only better hand I could find myself folding is JJ, and then only if I think you're weak enough that you wouldn't cap PF with KK or QQ. Pretty much anything else I can beat you with I think is a pretty easy call if not even a reraise if I think SB LAG will call with a crappy 9.

- C -

[/ QUOTE ]

It may be obvious to you, but will it be obvious to this group of players.

And assuming you think these players would pick up on this play, you like a fold????

DemonDeac · #5 02-10-2006, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think it's pretty obvious what you're doing, and I think if I were CO the only better hand I could find myself folding is JJ, and then only if I think you're weak enough that you wouldn't cap PF with KK or QQ. Pretty much anything else I can beat you with I think is a pretty easy call if not even a reraise if I think SB LAG will call with a crappy 9.

- C -

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think its obvious at all.
i thing its a very good river play, based on description on SB

psuasskicker · #6 02-10-2006, 01:38 PM

And assuming you think these players would pick up on this play, you like a fold??

Nope. But I like betting out on the turn a LOT more. The river move might work against certain opponents. I'm just saying that there will be people smart enough to figure out what you're doing.

If you're up against a guy smart enough to think through what seems to me to be pretty simple logic ... "he liked his hand on the flop, didn't like it so much on the turn, now a brick on the river gets him to raise?" ... you're in danger of getting virtually any better hand calling (or raising), and any worse hand folding. What worse hands could CO have? 88 - 55 could be there figuring you're firing at the flop with overs, and taking a card off on the flop planning to check the turn or just fold to a bet. These hands will certainly fold to the river raise, but might make a loose call for just one bet since it was the fish that bet it.

A higher percentage play is betting the turn, where TAG now could take a hand like JJ or QQ and think "if he didn't have me beat on the flop, now with the Ace he surely does" and either fold on the turn or fold to the river bet (especially the river raise) if he has a heart and doesn't catch.

i dont think its obvious at all.

Really?

Villain in this hand is a TAG, and SB is a super fish chronic bluffer...

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with : Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] : Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Villain raises , MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero 3 bets , Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (19SB, 6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Villain bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, Villain 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB bets, Villain raises, MP2 folds, Hero???

What's villain holding? What's he checking that turn with if he's got you beat on the river?

I think it should be pretty obvious he loves his hand against a chronic bluffer and hates it against everyone else. This is an insta-call for me as hero.

- C -

Fat Nicky · #7 02-10-2006, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting out on the turn a LOT more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

DemonDeac · #8 02-10-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And assuming you think these players would pick up on this play, you like a fold??

Nope. But I like betting out on the turn a LOT more. The river move might work against certain opponents. I'm just saying that there will be people smart enough to figure out what you're doing.

If you're up against a guy smart enough to think through what seems to me to be pretty simple logic ... "he liked his hand on the flop, didn't like it so much on the turn, now a brick on the river gets him to raise?" ... you're in danger of getting virtually any better hand calling (or raising), and any worse hand folding. What worse hands could CO have? 88 - 55 could be there figuring you're firing at the flop with overs, and taking a card off on the flop planning to check the turn or just fold to a bet. These hands will certainly fold to the river raise, but might make a loose call for just one bet since it was the fish that bet it.

A higher percentage play is betting the turn, where TAG now could take a hand like JJ or QQ and think "if he didn't have me beat on the flop, now with the Ace he surely does" and either fold on the turn or fold to the river bet (especially the river raise) if he has a heart and doesn't catch.

i dont think its obvious at all.

Really?

Villain in this hand is a TAG, and SB is a super fish chronic bluffer...

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with : Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] : Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Villain raises , MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero 3 bets , Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (19SB, 6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Villain bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, Villain 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (15.5BB, 4 players)
SB bets, Villain raises, MP2 folds, Hero???

What's villain holding? What's he checking that turn with if he's got you beat on the river?

I think it should be pretty obvious he loves his hand against a chronic bluffer and hates it against everyone else. This is an insta-call for me as hero.

- C -

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you keep assuming that the CO has teh same read on SB as we do? we've played with SB many times (thats why we're at this table). this could be CO's first time at table with villain.

you have no idea what CO thinks of SB

psuasskicker · #9 02-10-2006, 02:09 PM

why do you keep assuming that the CO has teh same read on SB as we do? we've played with SB many times (thats why we're at this table). this could be CO's first time at table with villain.

So what? How hard do you think it is for a TAG - which we know CO is - to figure out that a guy that's betting half his hands is a chronic bluffer? We obviously have some hands with CO. The ONLY way your logic stands is if one of CO or SB has just joined the table, and that assumes CO doesn't have any prior experience with SB.

You can't just make a move like this hoping that your opponent hasn't figured out your opponent is an idiot. It's fine if the reason is that CO/SB is new to the table and CO doesn't know about SB. But since OP didn't give us that info, I think you have to assume that CO knows SB's river bet is goofy cause he's seen him betting half his hands.

- C -

MacGuyV · #10 02-10-2006, 02:10 PM

edit: Umm, just for the record I skipped over the PF action and my post sucked.
I gotta stop posting during lunch.