A few ideas

[jetsetboy]

From what I saw so far on this forum I'm sad to say that the FR players deserve their reputation: we are a bunch of tight/weak players. I'm not saying that we are all losing players, it's clear that at least until NL400 you can play an Ev+ game being tight weak on nearly any site. I'm not saying neither that every body here is tight weak, i'm sure there are a few real imaginative TAG and a few good LAG too. I'm mainly talking about the regular posters playing up to NL200.

Hoppefully we can find some help in the SSNL/MSNL forum where most of the good posters are actually TAG or LAG.

A few ideas that could help us to solve this problem :

Idea #1: Copy past all the pooh-bah posts (one new thread for each of them) and discuss each one of them in order to define what is purely a 6-max "way of thinking", what is comon to both games, what can be added to each game. Each time it's possible, it could be really usefull to have the point of view of the original poster. Once we find a consensus on each of these post we can if necessary make a new post and add it to the FAQ.

Idea #2: Make our own "pooh bah post" or any similar idea (the wheel ?)

Idea #3: Make a survey of the hands/thread posted in SSNL/MSNL and cross post some of them here to discuss them from a FR POV. For example this post is, I think, really interesting. I don't know for you but I don't openraise A2s in MP1 when it is folded to me. I truly believe that if it is Ev+ to raise a hand UTG in 6-max, it's more Ev+ to raise it in FR when you are MP1+ (more FE pre and post flop, deception, the players make more mistakes) so after reading this post I think i'm going to try to raise more low suited aces.

I'm sure we can find a lot of other/better ideas to solve this problem.

Any thought ?

[Berge20]

Some good ideas there. I've got some things to do this weekend, but maybe I can find the time to do some assembling.

In the weak-tighty's defense, getting too creative or sLAG at NL50 and below can really just be spewing b/c many people are so bad they won't release second pair. Plus, you really need to understand the basics and fundimentals before you start throwing chips around in more marginal situations.

That said, I do think that as FR players move up, the need to be able to open their game up becomes signficantly more evident. Otherwise, our hands become face up to decent opponents and we can be manipulated very easily.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
Some good ideas there. I've got some things to do this weekend, but maybe I can find the time to do some assembling.

In the weak-tighty's defense, getting too creative or sLAG at NL50 and below can really just be spewing b/c many people are so bad they won't release second pair. Plus, you really need to understand the basics and fundimentals before you start throwing chips around in more marginal situations.

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Amen, amen, amen AMEN to that! I always curse my "great agressive plays" at NL25 only to have him call with some weak PP.

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That said, I do think that as FR players move up, the need to be able to open their game up becomes signficantly more evident. Otherwise, our hands become face up to decent opponents and we can be manipulated very easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said. I beleive fundamental poker is the only way to go until at least NL100. At NL50 I think you should be able to start learning to mix it up against known solid players, but I'd still play solid against unknowns. At least... I tell myself to... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Mr_Donktastic]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say we should 'solve this problem'.

What is the problem exactly???

A few posters play weak-tight? That is the problem? Or we all need to play FR more like 6max? Or we aren't as cool as the SSNL forum?

[jetsetboy]

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Plus, you really need to understand the basics and fundimentals before you start throwing chips around in more marginal situations.

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I agree at 100%. That's why I'm talking about the strat post of the SSNL forum, they are all about basics and fundamentals.

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In the weak-tighty's defense, getting too creative or sLAG at NL50 and below can really just be spewing b/c many people are so bad they won't release second pair.

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I don't agree. I haven't play much NL50- recently but from my own experience players are much more predictable at lower stakes and make more mistakes. Once you get the good reads and know how to adapt accordingly it is really easy to play a SLAG game (at least preflop). A good LAG or TAG will not fire three barels against a calling station that cannot fold BPBK with J-high. He will just wait for TPGK or a similar hand. It's the same point with the draw, it's usefull to fast play them but not against a passive calling station which will let you draw cheaply and will pay when you hit.

Furthermore I truly believe that poker is like tenis. It's harder to learn to play tenis making the "perfect" moves and you can learn to play faster by yourself, you will manage to be a decent player but you will take bad habits and it will be really hard to relearn the good moves later. In poker you can learn to be a profitable FR player @NL100 while playing 16/4/1.5 faster that if you want to play something like 14/9/2+ but it will much harder to go up in stakes after that.

[jetsetboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean when you say we should 'solve this problem'.

What is the problem exactly???

A few posters play weak-tight? That is the problem? Or we all need to play FR more like 6max? Or we aren't as cool as the SSNL forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that most of the poster play weak/tight (I include myself in this category at least postflop).

It's not about being "cool" or more like the SSNL forum. It's about getting better. I'm a winning NL200 player and so far when I spend an hour reading the ssnl or the msnl forum I learn much more that when I spend an hour reading this forum.

6-game and FR are not so different. There is some clear differences but more because the players don't behave in same way that because of the 3/4 more players.

[Mr_Donktastic]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean when you say we should 'solve this problem'.

What is the problem exactly???

A few posters play weak-tight? That is the problem? Or we all need to play FR more like 6max? Or we aren't as cool as the SSNL forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that most of the poster play weak/tight (I include myself in this category at least postflop).

It's not about being "cool" or more like the SSNL forum. It's about getting better. I'm a winning NL200 player and so far when I spend an hour reading the ssnl or the msnl forum I learn much more that when I spend an hour reading this forum.

6-game and FR are not so different. There is some clear differences but more because the players don't behave in same way that because of the 3/4 more players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think most posters here are weak-tight. We have some nits among us but they all mostly seem to play an aggressive postflop game. I for one have never played a weak-tight game in my life (or at least in a looong time)

The SSNL forum has good discussions because there are ALOT of people in that forum including a few really good players - not neccessarily because as a whole they have some more advanced understanding of the game than us.

I've played a good amount of 6max and would agree that the game is not much different at all. The only difference really is that there is no EP, only MP and LP.

That and the fact that the avg villian in 6 max is a LAG wheras the avg vilian in FR is a nit.

What's the best strategy for LAGs? Well, you're going to have to play back at them pretty often. What's the best strategy for nit? Steal their $ preflop and if you tangle w/ them postflop, make sure you have the goods.

I wonder why the advice differs betweeen our forums???

Edit just to say that I'm not upset or taking this personally by any means. I'm just having a hard time trying to distinguish what the core issue is here and what, if anything, could be done about it.

[kurto]

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I'm a winning NL200 player and so far when I spend an hour reading the ssnl or the msnl forum I learn much more that when I spend an hour reading this forum.

6-game and FR are not so different. There is some clear differences but more because the players don't behave in same way that because of the 3/4 more players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to keep in mind that there are differences in the forums, and much to learn, but that doesn't mean that one you learn in one forum applies in another.

For instance... at a low stakes table, there are many arguments about not folding hands of certain strength in certain situations. Because you have to assume a certain % of the players are bad. At the better tables, they ASSUME the players are decent. Because of that they can really narrow down the range of hands because they know players won't be making as many basic errors as you expect at full ring.

They also make moves and have to take others making moves into account when figuring out a hand.

They also seem to play more deep stacked games which, again, changes the dynamics.

There is a lot to learn. But it doesn't necessarily apply. Because at a $25 table... you can't play a certain line to represent a specific hand to get someone to lay down top pair top kicker because they're not laying it down.

[1p0kerboy]

There are a lot of flaws in this post.

OP, I think you're missing the point on a few things.

[1p0kerboy]

More specifically:

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I'm sad to say that the FR players deserve their reputation: we are a bunch of tight/weak players.

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Almost nobody who posts here plays a weak-tight brand of poker.

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, it's clear that at least until NL400 you can play an Ev+ game being tight weak on nearly any site.

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This is simply not true. Weak-tighties pay my mortgage.

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Hoppefully we can find some help in the SSNL/MSNL forum where most of the good posters are actually TAG or LAG.

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Why would FR players want help from 6-max players? There are many good FR players who post here who are willing to help those who need help. Bringing in someone who plays a different game is a terrible idea IMO.