Germany : "Most evil woman in the country" to be released

[Mickey Brausch]

After serving 24 years out of her five life sentences, Brigitte Mohnhaupt, 57, is to be released on probation within the next few days. (link) Mohnhaput was a member of the Red Army Faction, an urban guerilla / terrorist organisation. The RAF sought to combat what it saw as capitalist oppression of workers and US imperialism. It was active from about 1970 - having grown out of student anti-Vietnam war protests - until 1992, when it abandoned violence. It formally disbanded in 1998.

Mohnhaupt's iiminent release predictably sparked a wave of controversy, indignation and protest, especially from families of the victims. She was once described by the German prosecutors as "the most evil woman in our country", and she was the primary reason that, at the time, anti-terrorist units were infamously directed in their raids to "shoot the women first".

All this sounds like ancient history to me and RAF seem as relevant for Germany as the SLA was for America. This is time doing its devilish tricks, again, of course, because, at the time, a whole country was up in arms, literally, to face off a gang of twenty persons.

Mickey Brausch

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I find it very weird, it isn't even needed to heal any wounds as she has practically no supporters, so I don't understand the reason. They also released other terrorists earlier, an example:

Link

I have read a lot about it but haven't made up any clear mind about it. It is positive that they manage to maintain a justice system that can even release the most hated but at the other hand I think life time imprisonment is a fair sentence for terrorism.

[NCAces]

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I find it very weird, it isn't even needed to heal any wounds as she has practically no supporters, so I don't understand the reason. They also released other terrorists earlier, an example:

Link

I have read a lot about it but haven't made up any clear mind about it. It is positive that they manage to maintain a justice system that can even release the most hated but at the other hand I think life time imprisonment is a fair sentence for terrorism.

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It isn't terrorism ... she murdered 9 people. Per the article, she has never shown any contrition. If I were the relative of one of the dead, I'd be tempted to shoot her in the head on the street and take my chances with a jury.

I can understand the objection that some have to the death penalty. But I can't understand why anyone would support a justice system that allows someone to kill 9 people and ruin other countless lives in the process, and ever get to walk free again. Sorry ... you do that, you have sacrificed your ability to be free again in this lifetime.

NCAces

[Mickey Brausch]

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I think life time imprisonment is a fair sentence for terrorism.

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It isn't terrorism ... she murdered 9 people.

[/ QUOTE ]Come again?

Do you think terrorism does not involve murder ?

[NCAces]

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I think life time imprisonment is a fair sentence for terrorism.

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It isn't terrorism ... she murdered 9 people.

[/ QUOTE ]Come again?

Do you think terrorism does not involve murder ?

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It doesn't have to, now does it? My point is that she was not tried and convicted for being a "terrorist" ... she was tried and conviceted for the murder of 9 people. One could be tried today as a terrorist without having killed someone, yes? Shoe bomber ring any bells? I was speaking to the specific case, not terrorism in general.

NCAces

[oneeye13]

sounds hot. body pic?

[Mickey Brausch]

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It isn't terrorism ... she murdered 9 people.

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Do you think terrorism does not involve murder ?

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It doesn't have to, now does it? My point is that she was not tried and convicted for being a "terrorist" ... she was tried and conviceted for the murder of 9 people. One could be tried today as a terrorist without having killed someone, yes? Shoe bomber ring any bells? I was speaking to the specific case, not terrorism in general.



[/ QUOTE ]I take your point.

Yes, terrorism can involve only the destruction of property (Yeah, I know, that's infinitely worse in the eyes of the AC brigade!). And, of course, terrorists such as the Shoe Bomber were guilty of atempted murder.

But you touch upon an important point : Criminalizing thought, i.e. what do we do with people who sympathize and share some of the ideas espoused by the likes of al Qaeda - or, at the time, of RAF? People who do not do anything but share some or all of the ideas of terrorists. Should we prosecute ideas?

This was a real-life, tangible dilemma in the Germany of the 1970s, when various academics, journalists, etc were arrested for sympathizing with RAF. It's a Germany that prosecutes expressions of ideas, as we know, even today, expression such as wearing a swastika armband, or denying the Holocaust. You can do some serious jail time for such things in Deutschland.

Mickey Brausch

[GermanGuy]

You really need to show me cases of people being arrested and doing time in jail for sympathizing with the RAF. It's true that you can get punished for wearing swastikas or denying the Holocaust, but I believe you won't go to fail as a first time offender.
Free speech is usually held in high regard in Germany. Considering our history there is just this one single topic where we are a bit touchy (and almost noone disagrees with those laws...)
Considering the RAF. Mohnhaupt was sent to jail for murder and not as a political prisoner or terrorist. That thing supposedly got the RAF a little angry, because they were treated like "ordinary" prisoners.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]


After serving 24 years out of her five life sentences, Brigitte Mohnhaupt, 57, is to be released on probation within the next few days. (link) Mohnhaput was a member of the Red Army Faction, an urban guerilla / terrorist organisation. The RAF sought to combat what it saw as capitalist oppression of workers and US imperialism. It was active from about 1970 - having grown out of student anti-Vietnam war protests - until 1992, when it abandoned violence. It formally disbanded in 1998.

Mohnhaupt's iiminent release predictably sparked a wave of controversy, indignation and protest, especially from families of the victims. She was once described by the German prosecutors as "the most evil woman in our country", and she was the primary reason that, at the time, anti-terrorist units were infamously directed in their raids to "shoot the women first".

All this sounds like ancient history to me and RAF seem as relevant for Germany as the SLA was for America. This is time doing its devilish tricks, again, of course, because, at the time, a whole country was up in arms, literally, to face off a gang of twenty persons.

Mickey Brausch

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I don't see why her past political affiliations are at all relevant. What is relevant, is the fact that she's a convicted murderer several times over. I'd prefer that people such as that serve the remainder of their lives behind bars, but thats just me.

[Mickey Brausch]

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You really need to show me cases of people being arrested ... for sympathizing with the RAF.

[/ QUOTE ]Ulrike Meinhof committed suicide (some say she was murdered) in her prison cell. During the next twenty months, all of the key lawyers representing RAF prisoners as well as many other RAF supporters were arrested and charged with "support for a terrorist organization" under paragraph 129a of the West German criminal code (StGB).

More than 85 percent of preliminary proceedings according to § 129a StGB were taken because of suspected supportive activities in favour of "terrorist organizations", and these were usually verbal "offences". In the 80s, the use of § 129a StGB was further intensified and mainly applied against the growing social and political left-wing movements. The investigating authorities considered the popular and strong resistance against state and industrial projects like nuclear plants or airport extensions as a new and unpredictable "terrorist danger". The political police had more and more "after-work terrorists", such as the numerous upright community groups and activists in its sights. Thousands of members and activists of the movements against genetic engineering, animal experiments, urban destruction and later anti-fascists and anti-racists became victims of the anti-terror-jurisdiction. Dubious laws and verdicts helped to artificially multiply the numbers of "terrorists" within a short period of time. In the 1980s, there were 3,300 police investigations involving tens of thousands of suspected "terrorists, supporters and sympathizers". Between 1990 and 1998 there were still 1,500 similar preliminary proceedings. [Source : freilassung.de]

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It's true that you can get punished for wearing swastikas or denying the Holocaust, but I believe you won't go to jail as a first time offender.

[/ QUOTE ]OK, so they only imprison repeat offenders. Is that so big a difference?

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Free speech is usually held in high regard in Germany. Considering our history there is just this one single topic where we are a bit touchy (and almost no one disagrees with those laws...)

[/ QUOTE ]A minority, any minority, however odious its ideas, or revolting its beliefs, must be allowed to express itself. "Freedom of expression is really freedom for ideas we disagree with". In other words, it does not matter in the slightest if 95% of Germans approve of banning the swastika; those who want to idolize the swastika should be allowed to.

The United States of America shows the way. (No, really.)

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Mohnhaupt was sent to jail for murder and not as a political prisoner or terrorist. That ... got the RAF a little angry, because they were treated like "ordinary" prisoners.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with the German court's ruling, FWIW, on this. And I happen to disagree very much with the people now releasing Ms Mohnhaupt on probation.

Mickey Brausch