100NL, top two vs LAG and TAG

[five4suited]

Thanks in advance for any replies.

online 100 NL

The raiser is the TAG (16/12/4), UTG is the LAG (34/12), they seem not bad. Lots of stats, no notes yet. I've been at the table for a couple orbits. My feeling is that the LAG might call with either draw, the TAG would need AJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], JT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe J9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I'm also assuming he's not tricky enough to have raised 33 from that position. I guess I just really want to know, is there anyone who doesn't shove here? And if so, how much should I have raised? I can't see just calling here unless I'm against a real moron.

LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
MP1: $98.50
MP2: $97
MP3: $97.30
CO: $102.55
Hero (BTN): $92.40
SB: $37
BB: $105.8
UTG: $174.70
UTG+1: $104.10

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1.5, 9 players)
UTG calls $1, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises to $4.50</font>, MP1 calls $4.50, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls $4.50, Hero calls $4.50, SB folds, BB calls $3.50, UTG calls $3.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($27.5, 6 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $12</font>, UTG+1 calls $12, MP1 folds, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises all in to $87.90</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $75.90

<font color="black">Turn:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($215.3, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">River:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($215.3, 2 players)
No action

[BT2]

is folding this pre horrible?

[RyanCMU]

[ QUOTE ]
is folding this pre horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually dump it preflop as well, to easy to get dominated and lose your stack and its hard to know where your at in the hand unless u flop a monster...

As played, I play the flop the same.

[Jurrr]

I fold this pre. I'd rather cold-call 87s than this.

[five4suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is folding this pre horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually dump it preflop as well, to easy to get dominated and lose your stack and its hard to know where your at in the hand unless u flop a monster...

As played, I play the flop the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I'm surprised everyone folds this... KQo sure, but suited? Especially with 4 other callers plus maybe the blinds (the LAG who limped utg is almost certainly calling but not raising, because he's a LAG), everyone with full stacks, and the awareness that I'll be able to see the turn for relatively cheap? I've found thus far in NL that no one goes nuts on the flop in pots like this -- multiway, raised -- because they either have a set or are scared that someone does.

ryan, I hear you, but I'm an NL newbie, not a holdem newbie. I'm not getting stacked with top pair, and I'm folding the turn (and even the flop if circumstances dictate it) if I don't make my draw. I'm also folding to anything other than a min-reraise preflop, and even then, probably. Yes, I do need an almost perfect flop, but I stopped getting married to hands a long time ago. Perhaps I'm overestimating the value of stacking someone if I do get there?

I'd appreciate any additional responses, I'm confused... I expected that maybe I should have played the flop differently, but that I should have folded, on the button... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Jurrr]

My mistake, I didn't notice the number of callers and spoke in general against just one caller. My apologies. Yes, with multiple callers before me I'll play KQs.

[RyanCMU]

The more that I think about this hand, the less and less i like the flop shove...

its really bothering me that the TAG just called the LAGtards donk on the flop... Im starting to think a better plan maybe would be to just call the bet, and see what the TAG goes on the turn.

[pterodactyl_]

The TAG has an agression factor of 4 postflop. If he has a set he's raising on this drawy of a board with three others to act behind him. With that being said, I like the shove. QQ and KK and very unlikely from any of the other players in the pot seeing as two of each are already accounted for and no-one 3-bet PF. If someone is lucky enough to have flopped a set of threes then you'll pay them off.
The shove will charge the draws and maybe get a call from AK.

[D.L.M.]

not a bad preflop call on the button at all. just like callin with jt suited. as long as you arent afraid to lay down top pair. heads up i might not play it, becuase i treat it like a suited connector, not high cards.