Cap the turn here?

[Palomino]

I posted this hand on a different forum and people it was a split decision about whether or not to cap the turn here. I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on this forum. Thanks:

I was playing this hand against a buddy (I have removed his name per his request). He and I disagree about whether or not i should cap the turn. We are trying to decide what more people would do here....let me know what you think.

Also, what hand do you put the villain on?

We're both interested to read everyone's thoughts....

BTW, villain is 33/22/2.8 over 1200 hands according to my PT.

STAGE #559900767: HOLDEM NORMAL $3/$6 - 2007-01-29 22:08:22 (ET)
Table: HAMPTON (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - PHANTOMPLAYA ($77 in chips)
Seat 4 - MR_OMAHA ($358.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - villain ($87 in chips)
Seat 6 - SPAHN33 ($181.15 in chips)
Seat 1 - PALOMINO33 ($259.50 in chips)
Seat 2 - MJ20 ($27 in chips)
MR_OMAHA - Posts small blind $2
villain - Posts big blind $3
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to PALOMINO33 [Ad Ac]
SPAHN33 - Folds
PALOMINO33 - Raises $6 to $6
MJ20 - Folds
PHANTOMPLAYA - Folds
MR_OMAHA - Folds
villain - Calls $3
*** FLOP *** [10h 2s 5h]
villain - Bets $3
PALOMINO33 - Raises $6 to $6
villain - Raises $6 to $9
PALOMINO33 - Calls $3
*** TURN *** [10h 2s 5h] [Ah]
villain - Bets $6
PALOMINO33 - Raises $12 to $12
villain - Raises $12 to $18

Palomino....?????

[HoneyBadger]

seems like a call to me. And cap the flop.

[holland3r]

I cap the turn -- if he leads the river and you don't fill up, just call.

Also I think calling the flop 3 bet and raising the turn is fine, as opposed to capping the flop.

[venom007]

Its tough becuase you've given us NO information about the tendencies of your friend-- what sorts of hands he might do this with, if hes LAG, TAG. Ah on second look you gave his PT stats-- I hate giving that garbage, it doesnt really tell anybody very much despite many 2+2ers using PT stats as their gods. Anyway, this could be a wide range of hands-- 1010/55/22/3h4h/6h4h/6h3h/any other flush draw. Lets narrow it a bit, would he 3 bet 1010 OOP heads up? I think so....we can get rid of that. Would he call with weak small suited semiconnectors? Again I suck at reading PT stats, but some players will do this-- he can have a flush here but why is he 3 betting his draw OOP on the flop? Honestly thats the thing that throws me here, I dont think he 3 bets his flush draw OOP on flop but he might to be tricky.

Yes cap flop like Honey said....that begin said I probably call his 3 bet on the turn and on a non-heart river if he bets I might throw out a really tiny value raise, then if he 3 bets me you have to call and he certainly turns up the flush-- but I think you see 22/55 or A10 enough to call turn and then go for a sexy value raise on river if he bets, obviously if he checks river you bet.

I'm about to take a nap after having been up for 24 hours, hopefully what I just said makes some logical sense and there was something useful in there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Burnsabre]

From the sheer fact that villain 3 bets the flop, hes more likely to have a set than a flush draw... more evidence to this is that the flush card ace comes on the turn, so hed have to be going crazy with the less than nut flush draw.. I say cap flop, cap turn, and he leads into you on an unfilled up river call.

[Palomino]

Well, as PT shows, I only have 1200 hands on him. I really haven't played enough hands with him to know his tendencies. He thought that the 3 bet OOP on a flush draw was unexpected enough that he would earn a turn cap. I admit that I have made this same play before which is why I wasn't surprised that he did it. He is an aggro tricky player and he was in the BB so it is more difficult to put him on a hand. When he 3 bets a preflop raiser on the turn with 3 hearts out there I gotta think he has hearts.

[jstill]

im ok with not capping the flop to pop the turn.

IMO i just call the turn 3bet and hope to boat up on the river but capping is really close vs unknowns. There are definitely spots i cap the turn though, alot of which depends on what u think of villains play which u haven't provided us with here. What is ur read on him? Will he bet 3bet a draw oop vs u? will he bet 3bet a small pair like A5. what does he think u ll raise the flop with? is AK a possibility in his mind? Is he ever not 3betting TT preflop?

if noone asked any of these questions in the other thread particularly if he could bet3bet a fd w/ overs or an OESD (if hed even defend 43s) I'm pretty surprised. If thtas the case they didnt really do their jobs to answer the hand.

there are plenty of players i know wouldnt hardly ever (so pretty much never) bet3bet the flop with a draw so I cap the turn cuz i have the nuts (altho i mite call and raise a non 4 flush river). It also depends alot on what he thinks u ll raise the turn with. If its a wide range his 3betting range is wider, if he doesnt think u ll raise a bare ace here and his 3betting range is tighter (mostly flush hands since only AT 22 or 33 make sense other than that so there are fewre combos of worse hands) calling is probably best then.

edit: i wrote this before u added ur read stuff after the original post

[Palomino]

Yeah, people in the other thread brought up the same questions. I definately believed he could 3 bet a draw on the flop OOP. This hand was played on Absolute...basically, on AP people will jam the flop with anything, especially draws in my experience, even OOP. The 3 bet on the turn OOP indicates real strength to me. It is true that it could be set over set, but VERY unlikely anything as weak as 2 pair. And a flush seems much more likely than a set.

[jstill]

do u mean a flush is more likely than a set based on combinations or do u think he is unlikely to 3bet a set when u raise an A flush turn?

Obviously he should be more likely to 3bet the turn with a flush than a set since fewer hands beat him but if he'd always 3bet both on the turn the decision is pretty close. Combination wise there are more flushes so it seems like its a clear call (particularly since he may not always 3bet a set, but will he always 3bet a baby flush? theres really little difference as villain if u have 6h3h and TT only 3 extra combos u beat), but if hes much more likely to bet3bet a set than a flush on the flop the decision again becomes much less clear cut and could be a cap. If hed 3bet both on the flop and turn every time and no worse hands, than its an easy call but who can u say that about.

[Palomino]

I was meaning that there are more combinations of flush than set...but since you bring up the point, I also think it is MORE likely that he 3 bets with the flush than the set, however he may 3 bet with a set HU as well. Not sure OOP though, especially considering my betting sequence could easily be flush or AA as well, both of which beat a set that he has.