Gigabet river play

Foucault · #1 02-09-2006, 01:36 PM

I thought this was an interesting hand because it is a spot where I'd be too afraid to raise for value, with the flush on the board. What do you think of the raise? Of the call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t3155)
MP2 (t3415)
MP3 (t4140)
CO (Gigabet) (t9445)
Button (t1700)
SB (t4655)
BB (t3855)
UTG (t895)
UTG+1 (t3195)

Preflop: Gigabet is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls t200, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t400, BB folds, CO calls t400.

Turn: (t1400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, CO checks.

River: (t1400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t800, CO raises to t2000, SB raises to t4055, CO calls t2055.

Final Pot: t9510

A_PLUS · #2 02-09-2006, 01:47 PM

I would be worried after the river reraise, but before that, this doesnt feel very much like a flush to me.

*I would still call, just be a little worried

rockin · #3 02-09-2006, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was an interesting hand because it is a spot where I'd be too afraid to raise for value, with the flush on the board. What do you think of the raise? Of the call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t3155)
MP2 (t3415)
MP3 (t4140)
CO (Gigabet) (t9445)
Button (t1700)
SB (t4655)
BB (t3855)
UTG (t895)
UTG+1 (t3195)

Preflop: Gigabet is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls t200, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t400, BB folds, CO calls t400.

Turn: (t1400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, CO checks.

River: (t1400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t800, CO raises to t2000, SB raises to t4055, CO calls t2055.

Final Pot: t9510

[/ QUOTE ]

just call the river bet. no need to reopen the betting.

BPA234 · #4 02-09-2006, 01:51 PM

Two basic facts that I see are: the odds are that the flush is NOT there and Gigabet's stack is 2-3xs the size of the table's stacks.

I would assume that he is raising for value here because he rightly figures to have best hand, has to call the reraise because of the pot odds, and he knows that if he is wrong he is still in fine shape.

IMO, standard, solid play.

Foucault · #5 02-09-2006, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would be worried after the river reraise, but before that, this doesnt feel very much like a flush to me.

*I would still call, just be a little worried

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just that Hero to worry that Villain has a flush, but that Villain has to worry that Hero has a flush. In other words, you can't expect calls from too many worse hands, and you can get re-raised by better ones. That's my sloppy, spur-of-the-moment analysis that I would use to justify a call. But this hand got me thinking that maybe marginal river value raises like this are a play I ought to work on adding to my book.

nincomepoop · #6 02-09-2006, 01:57 PM

There's 7455 in the pot, it's 2055 for me to call, I'm getting laid 3.6:1 odds, an obvious call. Not to mention I have over 45 big blinds and can use the extra blocks to gamble in situations like this. No brainer call IMHO

Foucault · #7 02-09-2006, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume that he is raising for value here because he rightly figures to have best hand, has to call the reraise because of the pot odds, and he knows that if he is wrong he is still in fine shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, but it seems like the problem with the raise is that he is pricing himself in to call the re-raise, when it is VERY unlikely his opponent is re-raising without a flush.

Combine that with the fact that there aren't that many worse hands that pay off the raise on the river, and this just doesn't seem like a profitable play to me. You win 1200 more chips the times you are ahead and lose 3200 when you are behind. You have to get called by a worse hand almost three times as often as you have to get re-raised by a flush to make this profitable.

Although if you are planning on calling the re-raise, I guess you have to assume Villain is pushing hands you are ahead of, as well. Which hands do you put in that category?

Exitonly · #8 02-09-2006, 02:19 PM

i think i have to start limping occasionally in this spot PF.

in other news, think the river play looks normal to me.

BPA234 · #9 02-09-2006, 02:30 PM

Very good points. On this play, Gigabet may have benefitted from a read that he had on the villain that would broaden the range of villain's holdings. What was the buy-in? Sad to say, but I would include the entire range below through most online buy-ins.

Admittedly, if the villain is standard online mtt'r I would have been very suspicious of that check on the Q of spades. But, again discounting the flush, I would put the range here to be 2pr, set, badly played overpair (many people play poorly against very good or very bad players and make stupid mistakes they otherwise would not) smaller straight, to top pair top kicker.

BPA234 · #10 02-09-2006, 02:33 PM

I read somewhere, and I definitely believe it, that one of the differences between a good player and a great player is the ability to extract maximum value from marginal situations. I think this hand example qualifies, even if villain had the flush.