TPWK in BB - how do I handle this flop?

[Langerz]

Reads - UTG+1 is pretty new but seems laggy.
BT is an almost perfect fish that stacked off recently and min rebought.

I seem to find myself in spots like this a lot and go back and forth between donking and c/calling. I usually tend toward donking since c/calling seems weak. I want to bet out and protect my hand. The problem is if I get raised I'm probably in trouble but also have a big enough pot I may not be able to get away. If UTG+1 calls the fish is getting 8.5:1 and can call most pieces. I'm not folding though and c/c seems weak. (c/r just amplifies the problems with donking) Curious on the correct line here.

Also add comments with on how this changes if button has a reasonable stack since it is more common and probably more interesting.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
Hero ...

[downrange]

How does betting out protect? Any hand is call-worthy plus this isn't getting checked thru.

If you have even a little solid info this guy's a lag, getting raised by him doesn't mean trouble but here you could get btn forced out when in all likelihood you hold the best hand. I'd c-r to start getting some bets in.

If he 3-bets that's another problem since he puts you in the spot of giving a turn freebie but I don't know what you can do about that because you could c-c flop and he still checks turn; so I think you have to take the opportunity for extra bets when it presents itself.

But if you check flop and btn folds then I might go for turn c-r instead since your fold might appear more imminent HU and you lost the purpose of checking flop in the first place (IMO). Against a lag I think a couple extra bets going in are called for here which is why I want to raise somewhere.

I don't think anything changes because of the fish's stack size.

[jstill]

i pretty much always check raise this flop whether it goes bet fold bet call or ck bet to me. Donkings worse than ck calling i feel like as well.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
i pretty much always check raise this flop whether it goes bet fold bet call or ck bet to me. Donkings worse than ck calling i feel like as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

Donking seems like a pretty good idea to me.

[lank4ever]

[ QUOTE ]
i pretty much always check raise this flop whether it goes bet fold bet call or ck bet to me. Donkings worse than ck calling i feel like as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much never check/raise this flop. It seems like a good way to fold hands I don't want to fold and put myself in bad spots when Im behind. I always Ch/Ca here and lead either the turn or river.

I never donk the flop and I probably should, are you guys donk bluffing flops too?

[jstill]

why would anyone not wanna check-raise here and why is donking good Tom?

most aggressive small stakes players who raise preflop will bet this flop without thinking whether it hit them well or not, mine as well get UTG+1's continuation bet out of him from hands he ll just fold to ur donk. Plus u get the super fish trapped in the middle and dont risk having him knocked out by a raise drawing thin potentially. Yes UTG could 3bet after but he would have done that if u donked anyways. Check-raising gets more money in when ahead from hopeless hands and the difference between what you lose and win likely isn't changing vs donking and calling down from a raise. Check-raising seems like the line that gets u the most value here IMO.

[jstill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i pretty much always check raise this flop whether it goes bet fold bet call or ck bet to me. Donkings worse than ck calling i feel like as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much never check/raise this flop. It seems like a good way to fold hands I don't want to fold and put myself in bad spots when Im behind. I always Ch/Ca here and lead either the turn or river.

I never donk the flop and I probably should, are you guys donk bluffing flops too?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get how someone with a worse hand u dont wanna fold out is more likely to call down from ur turn bet just becuz u didnt check-raise the flop and actually make their pot odds worse to want to continue than if u did.

I also dont understand how ur turn or river donk alleviates the problem of being in tough spots when behind. Do you believe its an easy bet fold and u can trust them? If so why can u trust them more there than if u check raise the flop and they raise ur turn or river bet?

I do donk bluff some flops in some spots lank but Im more likely to cr bluff or semi-bluff a flop since I usually check raise my real hands. Trying to keep some semblance of balance in my game.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
why would anyone not wanna check-raise here and why is donking good Tom?
Check-raising seems like the line that gets u the most value here IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK if you fold to a three bet. Maybe c/r'g is also better because some LagDonkeys will raise a donk with a worse hand. You want to get a read on those guys ASAP though.

[PokerSparky]

Please checkraise the flop.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
Please checkraise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely and with most of what jstill is saying.
Against a LAG open in UTG+1 and a perfect fish HERO has a huge equity advantage. Both the the LAG and the fish are likely to put 2 bets in the pot with a wide range of worse hands.

I dont get those who want to donk hoping that UTG+1 raises and shut out the fish. I would much rather have the fish put 2 bets in with Ax or a gutshot without having odds, than have him correctly folding those hands.