2/4 BB defense.

[EGO]

I'm working on finding places to fold, and in particular figuring out how to narrow down ranges based on opponent's actions.

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Button is tight, but fairly aggressive, and is known to steal with a fairly wide range of hands, but I don't think K3 is strong enough to resteal with. In fact, the call might even be marginal. I typically let these big/little hands go, but I thought it would do well, and I could get away from the hand if I didn't flop anything.

I put the button's stealing range on: Ax, Kx, any two broadway, suited connectors, any pocket pair, and maybe a few worse hands if he thinks I don't defend my blinds enough.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

My urge here is to check-raise, since he could easily have less than top pair here, but I figure that he'll probably fold if he doesn't have a pair, and I'll get raised on the turn if he has a queen. I decide to call. Also, I know that if he raises before the flop, he always bets the flop if he's checked to. As King Yao says, and I tend to believe it, this bet gives away no information about his hand.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

A blank. This is where I'd like to know how to narrow down villian's hand range. What does this bet mean? I have no idea what it means, it just looks like a blind stealer pushing his hand again on the turn.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

The river counterfeits my worthless kicker, but I felt that he would still bet a worse hand than what I have. I certainly feel that given his pre-flop steal range, my hand is certainly going to be good here more than one time in seven. This isn't based on narrowing down his range, but on what I put his range on before the flop.

Results:
Final pot: 7.25BB

Standard? Spewage? How would you narrow down villian's range based on the bets, particularly on the turn?

[Jaran]

I would either c/r the flop or lead the river, planning to fold to a raise. His range only diminishes slightly based on the turn bet, especially if you have called some flops and folded on the turn. He doesn't need a hand to continue to bet. As played, you can prolly fold the river.

-Jaran

-Jaran

[Gib]

If villain is tightish than I hate PF. The rest looks fine against someone who is known to be a bit aggro 'cept I might donk/fold the river, if he's known to 3ball alot UI then I don't mind c/c, unless he is solid than it's very close to c/f on the river, however I'd still b/f.

Edit: oh, if he is solid then you really shouldn't be playing this PF.

[Zeldark]

My instinct is to fold with this preflop between the odds of missing the flop and domination. Once I see that flop I think I'd call down (heads up) against a raisor who could have a variety of stealing hands, but I think that perhaps just compounds the preflop call error.

[Shillx]

Fold PF. I would probably bet the river but people saying to check/fold the river are way off imo.

[cold_cash]

This is a good example of why I don't defend w/ hands like K3 against decent players. He's going to squeeze every last bit of value out of you when he's winning, but you're going to have a hard time getting anything out of him when he's not.

What if he has a hand like 77 and checks that turn through and then folds when you bet the river? You get jack-squat.

Then again, if a bunch of bets do go in anywhere you're never winning.

What does he think of your play, do you think? He knows you 're very unlikely to be calling that flop with a draw, but he bets the turn anyway. What does that mean? It most likely means he's not afraid of that board, which is a real bummer for K3.

[tyler_cracker]

wtf, guys. this is the standardest wa/wb hand in history, except that we have a lot of chopping outs, which only magnifies the value of the wa/wb line.

i fold preflop though.

[cold_cash]

...and the problem with being way ahead or way behind is that it's a reverse implied odds nightmare.

Also, this is a situation we willingly put ourselves in by calling before the flop. One of the best reasons for folding is to avoid putting ourselves in a way ahead/way behind situation.

This situation is different than when you open AJ and are 3-bet by a solid player on the Button and flop an Ace.

I'm not arguing with your point, but we can't just say "Oh okay, way ahead/way behind, so we do this, this and this. Problem solved."

We need to think "Oh crap, way ahead/way behind. This situation sucks because I can't win anything when I'm winning but I can get stuck paying off all the way when I'm not. How did I wind up here again? Oh yeah, I remember..."

[Zeldark]

You inspire me. Freakin' genius!

[tyler_cracker]

cc,

i agree 100% with everything you wrote, but i feel like you are debating with me. what is up?

also, considering that we were forced to post 1 SB before we got our cards, there are worse things than having some equity in a growing pot.