a HU LO8 hand

[TxRedMan]

60-120

villain completes SB

i raise the button with 2-3-k-j

villain 3-bets and i call

flop

Q-9-4

he bets, i raise, he calls

turn

6

he checks, i check

river

7

he bets...

my question in this hand is:

on the flop, i'm raising so i don't have to call a bet on the turn to see a river. this seemed very close to me though. it was either that or folding, and i'm not sure i had the equity in my hand (gutshot plus backdoor low draw) to make this play.

on the turn i catch good, but i don't see the value in betting as so many hands call that beat me. anyone disagree?


and the river, if he's betting A-2 i'm [censored].

but it's a crying call, right?


-Tex

[WilyTilt]

In my view, I would've checked preflop, 23KJ (if only ss or ns) is a little weak for a raise.

I fold the flop also. If raised like you did, I'd clearly call the river, since he's betting some kind of high on the flop, and didn't raise preflop, making A2 less likely.

[davebreal]

[ QUOTE ]
In my view, I would've checked preflop, 23KJ (if only ss or ns) is a little weak for a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like a very reasonable button steal hand to me.

[I dunno]

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn i catch good, but i don't see the value in betting as so many hands call that beat me. anyone disagree?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Maybe if you picked up a flushdraw along with your double gutter, but I think you would have said so in your post if you had.

[J_V]

The preflop raise is obvious. Not raising is a big error (someone suggested otherwise). His play is weird and I would hesistate to put him on a specific range if you don't have a good reason to.

The flop is never a fold and raising is not really good. Saving the half some of the time is not worth the risk of being charged more. I would only raise the flop if I was planning on making a play the whole way if you think he has a strictly low hand.

The turn is an obvious check. You have no fold equity and your hand is worse than a random hand at this point.

River is an easy call.

[WilyTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my view, I would've checked preflop, 23KJ (if only ss or ns) is a little weak for a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like a very reasonable button steal hand to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, is he on the BB or button? It seemed like he was on the BB because he said the SB completed first - as in, he raised in position relative to the SB. If he is on the actual dealer button, I can see a raise...

[Big Dave D]

standard every street

gl

dd

[SweetLuckyMe]

Yes, it's a river call. I don't think there's any point in raising that hand preflop, unless you opponent folds way too much.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
In my view, I would've checked preflop, 23KJ (if only ss or ns) is a little weak for a raise.

I fold the flop also. If raised like you did, I'd clearly call the river, since he's betting some kind of high on the flop, and didn't raise preflop, making A2 less likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he would always raise preflop with A2xx and A3xx hands here, then his limp means that you have the best low hand. If that is the case and there is a non-zero chance that he would fold to a river raise because he might be value-betting a hand like nines up or bluffing with the best high hand, then it seems like a river raise is guaranteed profit.

EDIT: Hmm, i forgot about the possibility of you being quartered when he has 23xx and beats you for high. So a river raise is not a slam dunk, but it sounds like something you should at least think about.

[Buzz]

Tex - Looking at one hand in isolation it is very hard (impossible) to tell what your opponent holds. It could be almost anything.

I think 23JK is a very slight under-dog against random hands. But I think that's mainly because if your opponent has one ace plus three random cards, 23JK is a substantial (2:3) underdog.

So the question I would ask myself is whether or not Villain has an ace for this betting pattern. Or would Villain raise with an ace?

(I'd mix it up myself, as would any opponent I could get to play me heads-up).

Villain completes, you raise, and he three bets. Does that indicate an ace or not? Hard to know after sitting across the table from someone for a while - and impossible to know looking at one hand in isolation.

You completely miss this flop, Villain bets and you raise. O.K. Villain calls. Villain could have anything, including a fantastic flop fit. But Villain has something. We can see that you have nothing, but Villain cannot see that. Villain must assume that you have something too. Therefore a thinking Villain has some kind of reasonably decent starting hand and some kind of reasonably decent fit with this flop. (Otherwise, since he's out of position, he probably doesn't bet the flop and then call your raise). Exactly what Villain's fit is, we don't have a clue - but Villain has something.

And meanwhile you have nothing, but Villain cannot know that. Fine. Well... not nothing... you do have a 4 out straight draw. Odds are 10 to 1 against you making your straight on the turn and about 5 to 1 against you making your straight on the turn or river. But the 5 to 1 odds would only be meaningful if you could get all-in on the flop. And you do have a back-door low plus some other back-door possibilities. It is not impossible for you to win here, merely far fetched.

Turn gives you a low draw and maybe your bottom end straight wins with a five. And you still can make a high straight with a ten. If we simulate from here, with your hand and this board against a hand with an ace and three random cards, you eat dirt. You're more than a 2 to 1 underdog. And if the river is a low card (but not an ace), because of the size of half the pot, you have to call a bet with your less than stellar low.

You've somehow gotten yourself into an awkward spot.

Villain checks, you check. Yes. That must be correct. With hand odds of 2 to 1 against you, and fresh money odds of 1 to 1, you do not have favorable odds to bet.

River is a seven. Villain bets.

You've managed to build a 5 big bet pot. When Villain bets this river, there are six big bets in the pot. If you call and split the pot, you'll get your call bet back plus 2.5 big bets. In other words, you're getting 2.5:1 (five to two) to call. I think you have to take those odds and call.

Let's go back to where you raise after the flop, so as to get a free card on the turn. I like your raise better than a call. But you have a third option.

Instead of putting two big bets at risk to possibly win 1.5 big bets (because you know if you take the free card on the turn, Villain will come out swinging on the river) - instead of putting two big bets at risk to possibly win 1.5 big bets, you can fold.

If you don't see it clearly, try stacking chips. Make two piles. Three white chips in each pile to represent the first betting round. Now two white chips on one of the piles and two blue chips on the other to represent the second betting round. Now two white chips on the white pile and two more blue chips on the pile with the blue chips.

See it? The pile you'll win is the pile with the four blue chips and the three white chips. Starting from the second betting round (when you had the option of folding after missing a fit with the flop) you're risking four chips to possibly win three chips.

Well... it isn't quite that simple because you could have caught a ten on the turn (but then you wouldn't want a free card), and you could have caught a five on the river (or an ace). But by and large, aren't you playing for just half the pot after the flop?

Aren't you mainly risking four to possibly win three, and with only a roughly one in four chance of seeing low become possible?

See it?

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn i catch good, but i don't see the value in betting as so many hands call that beat me. anyone disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]Not me. I agree. If you made a mistake, it was earlier in the hand.
[ QUOTE ]
and the river, if he's betting A-2 i'm [censored]. but it's a crying call, right?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. I think it's a crying call on the river. (But ideally you never face the decision because you don't get to the river).

Buzz