Razz - 4 & 5 street play/ river bet.

[Slide]

Does anyone play 4th and 5th street any different?
Also now that I look at it, not sure I like the river bet at all. Advice/opinions appreciated

Razz (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.70 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

5th Street - (2.35 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises

6th Street - (10.35 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (12.35 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (16.35 BB)

[SGspecial]

4th and 5th you played fine. On 4th you can get a free card if you want it, but given his passive play you should bet to not give him a free card (unless you know he is a "trapper" and always slowplays big draws like that). 5th st you are the favorite, even if he has a wheel draw, so you're getting a little +EV to cap it there. BUT once 5th st is done, you both might as well flip over your hole cards cuz there's no more mystery in this hand. That's why your river bet is pretty horrible. If you had smooth called 5th, then you might sell him that you paired the 4 and never made your 8 so he has to call you if he doesn't improve his 9. In that case, you'd bet it but fold if he makes a "gotcha" raise.

[blee24]

just wanted to point out that you _could_ be behind on 5th, and you're probably only a little ahead. For example, if villian has 5 2 in the hole, you're a little behind:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2349653
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah 7h 8h 5h 4h - 5c 2c ac 3c 9c / ad qd 6s 2s 5s as ks qs 9s
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 8h 7h 5h 4h 230787 46.16 268108 53.62 1105 0.22 0.463
Ac 9c 5c 3c 2c 268108 53.62 230787 46.16 1105 0.22 0.537

If he has 42 you're barely ahead:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2349652
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ah 7h 8h 5h 4h - 4c 2c ac 3c 9c / ad qd 6s 2s 5s as ks qs 9s
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 8h 7h 5h 4h 251934 50.39 247384 49.48 682 0.14 0.505
Ac 9c 4c 3c 2c 247384 49.48 251934 50.39 682 0.14 0.495

If villian is playing perfectly, he only caps 5th with the 52, right? but unless he's a very solid player, you're certainly a little ahead of his range here, so I'd probably want to cap it too. I don't think you can value bet the river though. Most people won't pay you off with a 9. You might get paid off by an 8, but I think a 7 or better raises you, so I'd check/call here unless you know your villian well enough to fold to a raise. I can't bring myself to fold to a raise here, so I check/call.

[blee24]

Forgot to say, I like your 4th street bet. People don't check-raise often in razz (in case were afraid of the A3 slow playing), but even if he did, it wouldn't be that bad because you want to thin the field.

[iggymcfly]

The whole hand looks fine including the river. Even if he "knows" you have at least an 8, it's going to be hard for him to fold a 9 here given how many bets are in the pot. Don't know what limits you're playing, but I wouldn't assume he'd only play with an 8 or better there at all.

[Moneyline]

I'd raise 3rd from this position, especially if the ante is high.

On 5th it looks like you're up against a wheel draw, which means you're only about even money here. If the stakes are such that jambing will up the rake, then I wouldn't want to keep tossing in bets and raises.

On 6th now you are the favorite, so I like the bet.

I would play the river the same. There's a chance that your opponent is raising with an 8, and the pot is large so you have to call.

I'm just learning razz, so I'm interested in hearing other opinions.

[*TT*]

3rd street - I complete because I like money.

4th street - fine. I am also fine if it gets raised by the villain.

5th street - slow down, he is either a maniac or he is telling you he has monster equity, and your a slight dog.

6th street tells me that I want to check 7th for sure to induce a bet.

7th - since he has so many outs I check, and call a bet.

PS: I haven't read the other posts, but I am willing to bet that most people played it very differently from me... I think that should tell you a lot about how you should be thinking about this hand.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]