standard raise or shove? (stars $530

[aggie]

Sorry if this question is relatively basic but being a cash game player I'm a bit of a donkey when playing 20-30BB stacks (which makes me a huge tourney donkey)...

We're in the money at this point, and both blinds are average stacks (i think there is like 200ppl left). I'm amongst the tourney chipleaders (in the top 10 i think). My image is fairly tight and i've taken down most of my pots uncontested. I've shoved preflop a few times against short stacks but my standard raise is 2.5bb's.

PokerStars Game #8173926013: Tournament #40452630, $500+$30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (5000/10000) - 2007/01/28 - 23:02:28 (ET)
Table '40452630 292' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: AGGIE (614971 in chips)
Seat 3: jaytheo40 (212269 in chips)
Seat 4: MariaKra (212820 in chips)
Seat 5: IrregularJoe (1207083 in chips)
Seat 6: MC-Beast (135582 in chips)
Seat 7: jmikekennedy (170524 in chips)
Seat 8: BigBlackJoe (170308 in chips)
Seat 9: amynerik (127037 in chips)

antes are 500
jaytheo40: posts small blind 5000
MariaKra: posts big blind 10000

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AGGIE [Jd Kd]

It's folded to me on the button. Both the blinds seem to be reasonable TAG's. Do i make a standard raise and fold to a reraise or is there any value to shoving?

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Do i make a standard raise and fold to a reraise or is there any value to shoving?

[/ QUOTE ]
raise and fold to re-raise. Shoving here to win 15k with a stack of over 600k ain't so smart.
Since you're a cash game player it would be like shoving on the button with $600 to win $15 in a 5/10 game.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Limp!

[IWEARGOGGLES]

1) You turn your hand into 27o if you're going to fold to a shove.
2) It looks strong, you have 61BBs, and you have position.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do i make a standard raise and fold to a reraise or is there any value to shoving?

[/ QUOTE ]
raise and fold to re-raise. Shoving here to win 15k with a stack of over 600k ain't so smart.
Since you're a cash game player it would be like shoving on the button with $600 to win $15 in a 5/10 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying you're wrong by any stretch but you're example is horrible...First of all, there is also 5k in antes....Second of all, both blonds only have 200k....My 600k stack is irrelevant as effective stacks are 20bb's. So i'd be shoving 200k to pick up 20k in blinds and antes

[shaundeeb]

I raise call here a lot if I think they are shoving more than Ax and pairs, as goggles pointed out this hand is very strong don't be ahead to get a stack in you are rarely way behind.

[MrGo]

No sense is shoving - stacks don't support it.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do i make a standard raise and fold to a reraise or is there any value to shoving?

[/ QUOTE ]
raise and fold to re-raise. Shoving here to win 15k with a stack of over 600k ain't so smart.
Since you're a cash game player it would be like shoving on the button with $600 to win $15 in a 5/10 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying you're wrong by any stretch but you're example is horrible...First of all, there is also 5k in antes....Second of all, both blonds only have 200k....My 600k stack is irrelevant as effective stacks are 20bb's. So i'd be shoving 200k to pick up 20k in blinds and antes

[/ QUOTE ]

Antes have to be $500, not 5000, which makes a huge difference. There is $19k in the pot before cards are dealt - blinds have 20x BB - Shoving is a horrible mistake. You are only called by dominating hands.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
1) You turn your hand into 27o if you're going to fold to a shove.
2) It looks strong, you have 61BBs, and you have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the replies goggles....I agree that limping is also a very viable option. I disagree with point #1 however because it seems at least fairly likely that if i raise 2.5bb's one or both of the blinds will CALL....In that case, KJs plays much better than 27o.

Let me make the case for shoving although i'm not saying that shoving is the best play:

These opponents will fold a lot of hands that are beating me or coinflipping. I think they fold A9-A2, and small pocket pairs. The downside is that when they do call i'm always behind and often times dominated. To me (not being a tourney player) it seems that if they had 12BBs this would be a clear shove. 20 bb's is much more foggy.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise call here a lot if I think they are shoving more than Ax and pairs, as goggles pointed out this hand is very strong don't be ahead to get a stack in you are rarely way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

But doesn't this actually make the case for shoving. Isn't it better to get them to fold small pairs and Ax