Modern Chinese Poker

[monroe]

I've been dealing out some hands trying to get a feel for CP with 2-7 in the middle. Here is one of the first hands dealt that I'm having trouble with.

AA2223344577T (no suits)

In real time, it seems easy to make a mistake with this, but perhaps those with experience would disagree. Assume a 2-4 structure.

The main problem I have is that I don't know how weak/strong a Ten is in the middle. I've put some possibilities below, in white to give people a chance to think about it on their own. The ones that I think are strongest have an asterisk next to them.
<font color="white">
22234 T7543 AA7 *
77223 T5432 AA4
AA223 T5432 774
AA773 T5432 224
AA743 75432 22T *
AA223 75432 T74
A2345 T4322 77A
A2345 AT432 772
A2345 T7432 A72 *
</font>
And, finally, what middle hand is so poor that it's worth completely giving up on in order to strengthen the front and back? A King, Ace, Pair?

[howzit]

since you have so many blockers your smooth ten is stronger than normal. in a relative value play, your aces up front, ten in teh middle will prob net you more money in the long run.

[scottc25]

I think I would probably give up on the middle and sticl a pair there. I think I would play it as follows

22277..t5433..aa4

The top and bottom will win a greater percentage than anything I can think of. Whichever way you go you are going to have to give something up, I say the middle.

In looking at your hands plaing a straight down low is complete suicide.

[monroe]

Some thoughts. First, I didn't give much thought to the fact that I held many low cards. Second, I can't believe I didn't consider the full house hands like 22277 T5433 AA4. If a Ten in the middle is marginal (even with a fistful of low cards), then this looks much better than any of my plays.

I imagine that at the end of, say, a 20 hour session of Chinese, players are missing plays left and right. Especially with deuce in the middle.

To those that play seriously, what rules are in vogue these days? 2-4 with deuce in the middle? 1-6? What royalties are you playing with?

[scottc25]

I usually play the 2-4 structure. I have never seen the 1-6 structure. Can you elaborate on how that is different than the 2-4 structure?

I also play with royalties as follows:

Top: Trips - 2 pts
Middle: Boat - 1 point
Bottom: Quads - 3 points, Straight Flush - 4 points


Edit: To change it up we will play 2-7 in the middle about half the time.

Edit x2: Found the 1-6 answer -

1-6 scoring
1-6 scoring is common in the card rooms of southern California. In this system, winning 2 out of 3 is worth 1 point and winning all 3 pays 6.

[Phat Mack]

First, I didn't give much thought to the fact that I held many low cards.

I think this is the most overlooked factor when playing 2-7 in the middle. You've got so many lowcards blocked that your opponents may be dumping their middle hands. You'll see this happen quite a bit.

[THEHANDOFGOD]

We play a fair amount of Chinese at The B. For 2-7, I'm not 100% sure what the average hands are (if someone has better data please post) but intuitively I think they're something like:

TTQ
Rough 9
Ace high flush

Now if you have all of those low cards locked up, and you're playing against three other hands, you *might* be able to scoop an unlucky player by setting:

44222 T7533 AA7

But you're risking losing if someone has a better FH (you have no paint).

Putting a wheel in the back is terrible since it's so below average and it significantly degrades the middle and front.

Setting:

77223 T5432 AA4

would likely win you 2 in the 2-4 structure. A perfect ten when you have all of the babies locked up is pretty strong.

This hand sucks. Too many choices, none of them awesome.

[howzit]

yeah, like somebody said, your back play is going to be weak since you hold no high cards. so i'd still go with perfect ten and aces up front.

one of the first thigns i noticed in the 2-7 game is that trips up front is suprisingly common. i make this play constantly when i can put a clean 9 or rough 8 in the middle and put some crappy 7 high flush or broadway straight in the back.

crap, we need way more chinese poker out in the east coast.

[karpov]

TTQ
Rough 9
Ace high flush

Where did you get these avarage hands?

[monroe]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the first thigns i noticed in the 2-7 game is that trips up front is suprisingly common. i make this play constantly when i can put a clean 9 or rough 8 in the middle and put some crappy 7 high flush or broadway straight in the back.

crap, we need way more chinese poker out in the east coast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, my own small sample agrees with this.

As for THEHANDOFGOD's average hands: I think that in standard CP AKx is averagish for the front. (Someone can correct me if I am wrong.) So, based on my own and (more importantly) howzit's observation, I can see a pair in front being average when playing 2-7. I can also believe that a 9 is average in the middle*. I'm not sold on an A-high flush being par in the back, though. I think the average hand there is quite a bit weaker.

* Some help here. I feel like this has potential to be very opponent dependent. Without simulator help to solidify some sort of "basic" strategy, I can see the par middle hand varying from player to player. Some may routinely punt the middle for strong outside hands, while others may be more inclined to build around the middle when there is any sort of reasonable low available. The structure (2-4, 1-6, etc.) will surely have a say in this as well.