ev positions

[straight6]

ive been visiting this forum for a few years
but never posted before
i want to change that

i was wondering the following

what is the typical distribution of ev on all positions
obviously the blinds would be negative
but what about the rest of the positions ?
what would be the theoriticly distribution of ev ,if all players would be playing "optimaly"

and how is the ev "typicly" distributed for "winning" players , for example im interested how this relates to some large players databases
and would there be some subtle differences in the distribution regarding limit/no-limit ?
and what would indicating in relation to a given playing style if more ev is gained on early positions in relation to late positions for a specific player?

regards pieter

[Gonso]

Same here, anyone have 500k hands at 5/10 or higher that could share this?

[JaredL]

I don't have a database but here are some fairly random thoughts.

Position is important and underrated by the majority of players. It's overrated by very few.

It's more important in NL than limit. For some reasons, note that missing a bet when you have a good hand is much more important in no limit for obvious reasons. Also, you will be much more likely to get priced out of pots when you are drawing out of position than in position. This is less of a problem in limit where draws come cheaper, but even if you have to pay you're getting odds. As a result of position being more important, you should see more variance in terms of money earned on the button versus EP and so forth. The same is true for deep stacks relative to shallow stacks.

If you have a bad player, these differences are going to be larger than for good players. The reason for this is that good players know about the importance of position, so they aren't going to play a lot of hands, or won't go too far with them, that can get you into trouble out of position. Bad players will play these hands. If you fold a -EV hand up front and I play it, that will make me much worse from that position. On the button if this hand is +EV to play, then we both play it. In other words, a perfect player will lose EV in early position because there are simply fewer hands that they can profitably play, and the profits earned on these hands are smaller. Bad players compound the positional disadvantage by not being aware that they are playing a lot of hands that cost them money on average, many of which don't (at least relative to their win rate) in LP. So the gap in money earned for bad players will be higher.

Finally, the importance of position varies depending on the table. For example, I've seen tables where there is a player that pots every single unraised pot preflop. Your position relative to the button will matter less than your position relative to him, especially if the stacks aren't very deep. In general your bad position will matter less if the players behind you are passive than if they are aggressive.

[straight6]

lets make this more concrete

asume 10 expert players wich all reacting "correct" to eachother they are in fact of the exact same skill because they are all experts and know that all other players are experts to

asume the play 12/24 blinds

would the theoreticly ev distribution something like this?

button=+8
sb =-12
bb =-24
pos3 =+1
pos4 =+2
pos5 =+3
pos6 =+4
pos7 =+5
pos8 =+6
pos9 =+7

[JocK]

On http://www.pokerroom.com/poker/poker...by-players.php you can find EV-stats averaged over more than 100,000,000 hands.

The dependence of EV on position can hardly be overstated. To a large extend this is because poor hands fare badly on the blinds (E.g. on a 10-handed table 72o has a negative EV of -0.41 on the BB, but is approximately EV-neutral in later positions), but also because stronger hands loose value in earlier position (E.g. whilst KQo has an EV of +0.17 on the button, it is EV-neutral in the BB).

Averaged over all 1326 starting hands, the EV stats on a 10-handed table reads:

position . . EV
. SB . . . -0.160
. BB . . . -0.223
. 3 . . . -0.035
. 4 . . . +0.000
. 5 . . . +0.010
. 6 . . . 0.012
. 7 . . . 0.019
. 8 . . . 0.021
. 9 . . . 0.032
. D . . . 0.035

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
On http://www.pokerroom.com/poker/poker...by-players.php you can find EV-stats averaged over more than 100,000,000 hands.

The dependence of EV on position can hardly be overstated. To a large extend this is because poor hands fare badly on the blinds (E.g. on a 10-handed table 72o has a negative EV of -0.41 on the BB, but is approximately EV-neutral in later positions), but also because stronger hands loose value in earlier position (E.g. whilst KQo has an EV of +0.17 on the button, it is EV-neutral in the BB).

Averaged over all 1326 starting hands, the EV stats on a 10-handed table reads:

position . . EV
. SB . . . -0.160
. BB . . . -0.223
. 3 . . . -0.035
. 4 . . . +0.000
. 5 . . . +0.010
. 6 . . . 0.012
. 7 . . . 0.019
. 8 . . . 0.021
. 9 . . . 0.032
. D . . . 0.035

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but those stats can't be theoretically accurate, because UTG can fold all hands and do better than those stats indicate

[JocK]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but those stats can't be theoretically accurate, because UTG can fold all hands and do better than those stats indicate

[/ QUOTE ]
That's correct. These are averages obtained in practice (including small stakes tables). The numbers highlight various common mistakes (playing too many hands UTG being one of them).

[straight6]

those stats are mixed with bad and winning players
if we go back to my initial theorethic assumption with the expert players ...is that assumption correct? and if not why?
if your ev is higher on early positions than later positions what does that imply regarding playing style?

regards pieter

[JocK]

[ QUOTE ]
asume the play 12/24 blinds

would the theoreticly ev distribution something like this?

button=+8
sb =-12
bb =-24
pos3 =+1
pos4 =+2
pos5 =+3
pos6 =+4
pos7 =+5
pos8 =+6
pos9 =+7

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
if we go back to my initial theorethic assumption with the expert players ...is that assumption correct? and if not why?

[/ QUOTE ]

The EV of the blinds would equal minus the SB/BB if you would simply fold all hands pre-flop. Obviously you can do better than that.

My guess would be that the theoretical EVs posted by you more reflect - say - 25/50 or 50/100 blinds rather than 12/24.

[JocK]

Also, I doubt whether the ratio of the blinds EV's should equal the 2:1 BB/SB ratio. For optimum play I would expect the ratio to be less than 2.

My guess is that for 50/100 blinds the character of the EV distribution would be something like:

SB = -16
BB = -24
UTG = +1
P4 = +2
P5 = +3
P6 = +4
P7 = +5
p8 = +6
P9 = +8
BTN = +11