KT flopping TP in a multiway pot

fretelöo · #1 01-26-2007, 07:26 AM

The raiser sat down very recently. He was raising relatively light. 4-tabling, so no real reads on the rest - noone that really scared me, though...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero ???

I guess I need help. To protect my hand, I want to face the field with 2 to call - so I bet out, hope that BB raises, right? But what if he's on AJ or AQ, or even QQ?
So maybe c/r anyway (BB will c-bet) even though that will probably not fold anyone out? c/r is some sort of strong hand play - so if I keep firing an unscary turn, I can expect a few folds there.
What's the best line here?

Dam · #2 01-26-2007, 08:01 AM

Fret, youve just advised Watkins to fold A10o in the BB as its easily dominated - quite rightly. And here you are playing K10o in the SB !!!

fretelöo · #3 01-26-2007, 08:04 AM

It wasn't raised pf! With no indication someone has a better king, for half a SB, sure!
With ample indication that you'll be dominated often for another SB, no!

Dam · #4 01-26-2007, 08:16 AM

Maybe Im too cautious with these - but too many people limp with KJoff. Ive been in a similar situation to this, and at showdown the villain had KJ.

I'd possibly play this hand on the button, where you can at least re-raise a bet on the flop to see who has the best King - but in the SB - you'll just end up betting and being called all the way to SD by a villain with a slightly better King.

Dam · #5 01-26-2007, 08:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The raiser sat down very recently. He was raising relatively light. 4-tabling, so no real reads on the rest - noone that really scared me, though...

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero ???

I guess I need help. To protect my hand, I want to face the field with 2 to call - so I bet out, hope that BB raises, right? But what if he's on AJ or AQ, or even QQ?
So maybe c/r anyway (BB will c-bet) even though that will probably not fold anyone out? c/r is some sort of strong hand play - so if I keep firing an unscary turn, I can expect a few folds there.
What's the best line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

As played I bet out on the flop, folding to a raise. Check the turn UI.

fretelöo · #6 01-26-2007, 08:29 AM

Edit: this was re your first answer, not your suggested action.

That's MUBS.

Essentially you're saying that position here is worth more than 7SB!! If you limp with this in LP with 6 in the pot, you pay 1SB to win 7/8. I complete for 0.5SB to win 7/8 as well. So 13:1 from the SB is supposed to be more marginal than 7/8:1 from LP?

Of course you'll be beat frequently. That's why you only play this from LP or in an unraised pot from the blinds, but given that, you've got yourself a +EV situation.

After 20k hands in various stakes, and 187x KTo, I'm at .13BB/hand. It's not AA, but not 72o either.

Dam · #7 01-26-2007, 08:36 AM

Your right. I have MUBS with A10, K10 and Q10. Mainly because of some of the un-aggressive freaks that I play against that limp with J kicker and even Q kicker- and then show absolutely no aggression thereafter.

Your probably quite right to say its +EV. I'll be interested to see other opinions on this. And how to play it- cause I'm unsure of that as well.

fretelöo · #8 01-26-2007, 08:38 AM

Ok, bet, fold to a raise. hmmm. The thing is, I WANT this to be raised. Of course, if I bet and everyone just drops dead, that's fine with me as well, but other than that,
- I don't just from the PFR expect the BB to have AK. If he bets the flop, that's quite likely a c-bet
- Ppl will just as likely play their K4 as they'll play KJ. So, I don't necessarily hate it if anyone is going to showdown with this.

If I donk this flop, then with the intention of BB raising me, facing the field to coldcall two which they'll probably can't do.
If I don't bet this flop, then with the intention of c/r a bet from BB hoping to (a) maybe get someone to fold (unlikely) (b) getting folds on the turn from weak made hands like A5, J3 and the like if I keep firing.

In either case, I think I have to turn the gas on if I want to win this pot - if I bet, get raised by BB, I will get most folds, but of course, his raise makes him look a lot more like holding AK. If I check, he bets, I c/r, but I won't get a lot of folds.

So which one is better?

fretelöo · #9 01-26-2007, 08:42 AM

addendum: I guess c/r is better. If BB c-bets, any KJ will raise before me, indicating that TP is no good any more. If I bet, BB raises, any KJ will most likely just call, planning to raise the turn, no?

unterfish · #10 01-26-2007, 08:43 AM

*Still on probation*
Well, yes, lead out of course.
It is nice to get called by QQ. It is nice to get called by some twisted straight draws.
It is not nice to get called by a better king. But you don't have any reason to believe there is some out there so far.
OTOH, BB is likely to bet or fold. If he has AK or better, he will raise most of the time. But at least you know where you are.
If he has QQ or worse, he prolly won't raise. He would have bet (but not for sure).
The problem is: Yes. You have to protect your marginal top-pair. And I think it is better to lead out than to hope for a bet from BB.
And I would not c/r unless it's the very last player to act who bets.
*Probation*