Playing at Squeeky Tight Tables

[nerdking]

I hope this isn't too incoherent as I wrote it in the middle of a caffeine fueled frenzy:

A month and a half ago or so, one of the forum members made a post about the Pokerstars .50/1 tables and how tight they were. He was concerned about having to play where the average number of players seeing the flop was less than 25%. As we all know, the main gist of the Ed Miller style of play is "crushing loose low limit games". Seeing 2-3 players to a flop is not a loose table by any stretch of the imagination. Through circumstances beyond my control my schedule only allows me to play poker during the tightest of tight times at Pokerstars. I can't switch sites because I'm an American and used Neteller like everyone else. I am more than willing to do my fair share of table hopping to get to a loose table while I'm playing, unfortunately lines can stretch 8 deep at a time if a table gets to more than 30% players per flop. For the last two weeks I've been swinging like Tarzan from vine to vine chasing profits. There were times, though, when ALL the tables dropped below 25% PPF. It was then that I knew I was in trouble, so I dug a trench and got to fighting.

The first thing I noticed was that my opponents were holding onto their chips with white-knuckle abandon. Decent hands were getting walked around. Really decent hands like AA-JJ were getting only the blinds. As I played it dawned on me that this was just like playing the final table of a tournament or being up against the last 3 or 4 players in a sit-n-go. A raise--ANY RAISE--would take the blinds. C-betting against these rocks would take the pot. The cash wasn't much but it was something and it kept my head above water. Then last week Aaron W. made his post on common mistakes poker players make, the most germaine amongst them being:

* Villain is a TAG (measured by preflop stats, 16/8 - 20/10) = Villain is good at poker

The same goes for TAP players and especially TPP players. Just because they're tight, loose, slightly loose or whatever doesn't mean they're better than you. Your money is your money and as a serious poker player it is your solemn duty to increase your bankroll.

I went back to my early days as a crazy aggro NL player to get an idea on how to beat these monkeys. The answer being raise raise raise. This, coupled with having a good idea of your opponents tendencies and knowing when to hit the gas and when to slow down means that you should do well.

The tight tables are the ones you need to be the most careful of. Watch every hand that goes on there. Even moreso than regular tables. You're Sam Fischer from Splinter Cell and you need to sneak around these pesky guards. You're fighting a guerilla battle, so don't make your steals obvious. Don't steal just from the CO/Button. Fire with K-high from E-MP. Raise with connecting cards, suited aces, your smile and good looks. Just TRY to steal the blinds. If you hit aggression from a normally passive player, slow the hell down. If you hit aggression from a normally aggressive player, rely on your reads and proceed from there. Make a note on him that he might be more observant than the others. Refer back to Phil Gordon's advice that if you don't get your hand caught in the cookie jar and lose a pot here and there, you're not stealing enough. If you're getting called down every time, you're stealing too much.

Playing these tables is wholly and truly an art and it is somewhat difficult (at least for me), but it should keep you afloat until some looser fish swim by and you can ease back off the edge of your seat. I'll throw this out there and see what people have to add.

Good luck and good hunting

[Dam]

[ QUOTE ]


* Villain is a TAG (measured by preflop stats, 16/8 - 20/10) = Villain is good at poker

The same goes for TAP players and especially TPP players. Just because they're tight, loose, slightly loose or whatever doesn't mean they're better than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats something that occurred to me recently, I'm always cautious around TAGS, as everyone is, but I watched one the other day just plainly refusing to give up his Pocket Kings, when the board was clearly mono-coloured.
He chose his hands well. Played aggressively. Yet he couldnt fold a semi-decent hand. They all have their weaknesses.

Great post.

[Befolder]

As a US player also, I have a portion of my roll on four sites: Absolute, Ultimate Bet, Full Tilt and Pokerstars.

I regularly play three tables at once and some nights those three tables are on three different sites because those three tables were the most favorable looking.

When I see the long lines you mentioned for table waits. I open up a new one and sit out until it fills up. Sometimes the other in line notice and sit in. Other times they don't, but it's obviously not the only place I'm trying to get a game. Making a new table is probably a great idea because the fish will come to the bait. Sometimes those long lines are just full of TAGs. The smalle the table list and longer the line, the more likely there are fish in that net too because it's the only table going.

Those two things above I've never done until last month. I've never had to. Gotta make adjustments though.

[nerdking]

creating another table is a fine idea when there are only a few tables active or the lines to get in the game are more than 3 players deep. Oftentimes I've seen a table's VPIP drop as players cycle through the line and onto the table. Your average fish doesn't want to wait in line to get a game. He just wants to sit and play, that's why oftentimes it's the good players who are waiting in line to sit.

Creating a new table has its own challenges, though. Sitting out is a fine option if you're not comfortable with your SH/HU skills but when I go to a new table to play with someone, I am often annoyed by the fact that someone would create a new table only to sit out while others fill it in. I guess you could say that I think it's a cowardly thing to do. On the other hand, shorthanded FR play can lead to being down 10BB or more due to some crazy hands when the table finally fills up and you're left trying to dig yourself out of the hole.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
creating another table is a fine idea when there are only a few tables active or the lines to get in the game are more than 3 players deep. Oftentimes I've seen a table's VPIP drop as players cycle through the line and onto the table. Your average fish doesn't want to wait in line to get a game. He just wants to sit and play, that's why oftentimes it's the good players who are waiting in line to sit.

Creating a new table has its own challenges, though. Sitting out is a fine option if you're not comfortable with your SH/HU skills but when I go to a new table to play with someone, I am often annoyed by the fact that someone would create a new table only to sit out while others fill it in. I guess you could say that I think it's a cowardly thing to do. On the other hand, shorthanded FR play can lead to being down 10BB or more due to some crazy hands when the table finally fills up and you're left trying to dig yourself out of the hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think hard enough, you can come up with a better description than "cowardly" for sitting out until the table becomes moderately full.

I'm comfortable HU and SH'd. When full tables start to break down, I'll often keep playing as long as there is still a fish there. It's plain stupid to play 3-handed w/ a couple of other known TAGs. The only winner is the rake.

I don't start new tables to play short handed though. Obviously there are plenty of SH tables to choose from if that's the intent.

Because I usually have other tables I've just opened at other sites, I could care less that my new table is empty for a while because I have action going on elsewhere.

In fact that was my major point, which I forgot until now. I don't just play with those that sit at the tables because playing a table that short always requires an action. If I have two other tables going as well, it becomes a little dizzying constantly jumping to the HU table. It'd be like going out to the bar with two friends and bringing your infant along with you. You try to keep up with the conversations your friends are having, but this tiny baby keeps bugging you for something. It can make it tough to enjoy yourself.

Be a little more open minded NK.

[nerdking]

it wasn't meant as an insult to you by any means. That's just been the feeling I've had at times towards the "sitter-outers". I'll attempt to be more considerate in the future =)

[bravos1]

Another good thing about opening a new table is that when it does eventually fill up, most of the people that were playing SH do not adjust that quickly and the table will sometimes play quite a bit looser for a period of time. This period may be very short, but I have seen it play that way for 30-45 minutes before typically tight players got back to playing tight. This of course also helps in loosening a normally neutral player.

[nerdking]

what I'm getting from you guys here is "don't play at the tight-tight tables". that kind of bugs me.

[Befolder]

I don't remember either of us saying that. However, you should be playing at the best tables you can find, and the best tables are the loose ones.

Only a poker player who isn't playing to make the most that he can is playing at a harder table.

That isn't money motivation, but rather motivation to perhaps to challenge oneself to beat good players. This is probably why Jerry Buss plays in the "Big Game." He is certainly not going to win more than he loses long term, but he can say he played with them.

It's a fools game if you think you'll make much in the long run at those tables.

Knowing how to play on a tight table is valuable, but it should not be preferred when better options are available.

[milesdyson]

Don't play at the tight-tight tables.