I feel like a fish calling this river..

Joga Bonito · #1 01-19-2007, 05:05 PM

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 7 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.70 BB

I know the pot is huge.. But anyone in there right mind is gonna guess 2 pair at the least after he 3-bets this turn right?

Big Folder · #2 01-19-2007, 05:10 PM

you need to raise this flop first of all. You have TPTK. Unless you have a read on BB that he never ever, even once(i mean NEVER!) bets out into a raiser without an absolute monster should you call this. Even then its probably completely wrong since even if you knew for sure he had 2pair on the flop you would still raise to draw for a free card(if he's passive).

Waiting till the turn screws this up. He could have AQ, AJ, and think you turn raise is crap and 3-bet you. If you raised the flop you'd be betting for value and you'd have a better idea what he's thinking.

As played you should call this river, you have TPTK and BB has shown strength but its not enough for me to think "holy poop, I'm totally screwed I need to bail." If BB is mega passive and you pulled this line on him and he 3-bet you then I'd call the turn and fold the river unimproved. But your read would have to be pretty good on him. If he has crazy ways then you simply call.

bozlax · #3 01-19-2007, 05:13 PM

Can you give us some idea of what you're thinking, here? What hand did you put him on when he donkbet the flop? Why not raise the flop? Why raise the turn?

Joga Bonito · #4 01-19-2007, 05:16 PM

My reasoning for only calling the flop was that I assumed I had the best hand w/ TPTK, so I wanted the original raiser to continue his aggression, I felt like the flop was safe enough to let another card come.

Is this flawed? It seems to work very well for the most part.

OziBattler · #5 01-19-2007, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you raised the flop...... you'd have a better idea what he's thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
the above is important...slowplaying, if that was your intention, does have disadvantages.

so big pot and readless Im calling the river...except to beat a weaker ace enough to win which doesnt need to be very often.

Joga Bonito · #6 01-19-2007, 05:23 PM

Thanks guys, it seems like people who know more than me about poker are agreeing that I should infact raise the flop. In this position I do raise the flop probably 80-90% of the time, I certainly don't play this hand with a call on the flop in most spots, I just felt it was the best option.

So saying I do raise this flop and he 3-bets it. My plan of action from this point would have been seeing the turn and folding UI on the river.. Correct?

sccrneo · #7 01-19-2007, 05:30 PM

I am raising the flop and capping if he 3-bets. If he still leads out the turn, I am just calling down. If he checks, I am value betting and calling a raise if he gets tricky. River sucks but its a big pot so I am calling.

Big Folder · #8 01-19-2007, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So saying I do raise this flop and he 3-bets it. My plan of action from this point would have been seeing the turn and folding UI on the river.. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the results may be skewing your impression on how you played this hand.

This is read dependent at this point. If he very passive and he three bets you on the flop, pops you on the turn then folding UI on the river might be ok. Then again the pot is huge, but if you have a solid read on the guy(you've seen him call down all the way with TPTK; you've seen him slow down to a flop raise even with 2-pair) then you can fold the river.

If he is an average player or an unknown I call down. TPTK is good on this board a fair amount of the time, especially when you are getting 13:1

Big Folder · #9 01-19-2007, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for only calling the flop was that I assumed I had the best hand w/ TPTK, so I wanted the original raiser to continue his aggression, I felt like the flop was safe enough to let another card come.

Is this flawed? It seems to work very well for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing you have to realize is that even without an obvious straight or flush draw out there(note: there is some connectivity on this board. If someone had 75 they hit their straight. You need to bet when you have the edge), people can still be drawing. If someone has an Ace with a weaker kicker they are drawing to beat you with 3 outs. If someone has mid or bottom pair they have 5 outs to improve. If you are ahead you raise in this situation. Your hand is too strong not to raise on this board and you will punish people trying to draw to two pair or better.'

While you say you raise here most of the time(which is good) don't worry about mixing up your play at the micro levels. You can raise AK 100% of the time preflop and when a A or K comes (and you pretty much should) and nobody is going to really respect it. Just bet for value plain and simple. When you move up to some challenging games then you might need to work in some deception. Still not raising in those games 20% of the time with TPTK in this situation is probably giving up too much value for deception purposes. You certainly shouldn't give up that much value at these limits. jack that baby up!

Joga Bonito · #10 01-19-2007, 05:42 PM

Thanks for the Replies Big_Folder, and everyone else.
I don't really have many reads at the micro-levels because I'm not playing with the same players for more than 200-300 hands at a time. I notice rather quickly who the loosey goosey's are and who never plays a hand. Beyond that they all play similar.

Thanks everyone.