Let's have the set over set discussion now (100nl hands vs nits)

Slap My Jack · #1 01-19-2007, 04:13 PM

I think this mostly applies to bottom set hands. If I had flopped middle set, it's 50/50 here win or lose and potodds dictate all-in. If villain had raised, then that might change things.

Villain is a regular. 13/1/.6

I have seen him limp pocket kings and check call a low flop and then checkraise huge when he turned a set.

He also reraises preflop huggggeee if he has AA (4 to 25).

Can you fold here? What am I beating?

Am I ever good here?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $143.75
UTG+1: $259.30
MP1: $95.20
MP2: $47.75
CO: $198.70
Button: $98.50
SB: $95.85
BB: $130.40

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $3.5, UTG+1 calls, 6 folds.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $6, UTG+1 raises to $26, Hero raises all-in $140.25, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($289, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $289)

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($289, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $289)

Results:
Final pot: $289

Slap My Jack · #2 01-19-2007, 04:15 PM

Here's a 50nl hand, similar situation.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.40
Hero: $70.05
MP1: $21.90
MP2: $45
CO: $46.35
Button: $95.30
SB: $50.75
BB: $19.50

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($4.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $4.25, Button calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($12.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $12.75, Button raises all-in $89.3, Hero calls all-in $51.3.
Uncalled bets: $25.25 returned to Button.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($140.85, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $140.85)

Villain is 8/3/1.6

Theo_Brixton · #3 01-19-2007, 04:26 PM

Hand 1 - I like limping UTG with 77 instead of raising. As played though, I prob can get away from it against said opponent. What is he smooth calling there UTG+1? I highly doubt it is QQ KK AA. It totally looks to me he has 99 or JJ, nothing else really makes any sense. Save yourself 130 dollars by folding to his flop raise. I can't see him playing AJ or an overpair like this.

Hand 2 - I don't even play 22/33 from EP, much less raise. Flop bet is good, Turn I can fold against an 8/3. I don't think he is playing KQ or AK this way, a nit would raise either of those on the flop. Obviously I can't see him having two pair here, so what is left? 88 IMO.

AdamBragar · #4 01-19-2007, 04:26 PM

You seem to have pretty strong reads, statwise and observation-based, that this player is pretty tight and very passive. Without reads, this hand plays itself.

However, nothing wrong with making a laydown like this if you have the reads and in this case it seems like you had a reasonable read to make this fold.

Slap My Jack · #5 01-19-2007, 04:48 PM

I mostly always enter the pot with a raise or else I don't play the hand at all. I mostly play 6max though.

I really don't think I'm making much money limp/calling raises, or any at all. I have to make back all the money lost to limp/calling and missing, limp/calling hitting and still losing, and from when I hit.

When I raise I have the initiative and put pressure on my opponents. I can also take it down with a cbet sometimes, and it disguises my hand. It also throws in random hands to deny setminers their odds if I just raise UTG with big pairs and AK.

Theo_Brixton · #6 01-19-2007, 04:53 PM

Six max is very diff - there you want to open any pair from any position. IMO though in FR it is unprofitable to raise EP with small-mid pairs. Limping isn't great either, that's why I often just fold from that spot. I've also had 22/33/44 run into set over set a number of times, with all the people that set mine at FR, it will happen more than you think.

andyEB · #7 01-19-2007, 05:19 PM

I like your line here against LAGs and bad players, but not against nits (especially this guy - king of the NITs).

For this opponent, how many hands are those stats for? This guy seems weak-tight to the extreme.

I just don't think I'm good enough to lay a set down, but luckily this exact situation will happen like never.

I could see him playing QQ+ this way too, but I really wouldn't rr AI on the flop. I think you have to call and either plan to lead the turn or c/r, c/c on the turn. The AI pf let's him nail you when he has a bigger hand and fold AJ, and maybe even QQ+. If you're ahead here he's drawing very very thin. If you're behind you don't want all the money in. Just calling seems right -- like I said against looser opponents I like the shove a lot.

I don't think I'm ever getting away from this unless the stacks are very deep... even then I would be in agony from laying a set.

andyEB · #8 01-19-2007, 05:22 PM

Given your stack size in hand 2, I'm never laying it down there. Maybe it's a leak, I just can't lay that hand down.

andyEB · #9 01-19-2007, 05:23 PM

I like the pf raises. I play a similar pf style in FR lower limits NL and it works very well...

SMACK BOOTY · #10 01-19-2007, 06:07 PM

I do not believe in the concept of “low set”. If I flop a set, all my money is going in eventually if I can help it. I don’t worry about bigger sets, because if it happens, I’m going to lose all my money, guaranteed, so what’s to worry about? This attitude may qualify me as a donkey; so be it. I worry about KK vs AA, but never bigger sets.
I know several regular players on FT that like to play QQ+ the way the villain played here. Limping in and springing on players with these hands is “their thing”. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was one of them.
Finally, these small-mid pocket pairs offer the best implied odds out there when they hit, so I try and play them all from whatever position. This is a fundamental difference vs. limit, where I would throw away 22-66 from EP. If I get raised, I will re-evaluate based on what the raise was, number of players still in the hand, and stack sizes. Remember, its not pot odds that matter, its those juicy chips sitting in front of the other players I’m constantly eyeing. And flopping a set is the best way to get them I have found.