Small PP - two preflop questions.

fretelöo · #1 01-19-2007, 03:18 PM

I think the first must somehow be correct and the second at least not terribly wrong. But I'm not sure. Therefore --> line check.

Hand 1

Button is TAG (16/12/2), SB is a maniac (26/24/3.5)

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

Yes?

Hand 2

Villain is 69/15/0.5
BB is 52/0/0.2

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

I guess this is somewhat marginal, however with the likelyhood that BB will come along, UTG+1 definitely calling and the option of still getting UTG calling, I was thinking it's ok?

kerowo · #2 01-19-2007, 03:24 PM

Hand 1 I'd call because I'm discounting SBs 3-bet.

Hand 2 is close so it probably doesn't matter. Understand there aren't many flops you are going to be putting any money in on though.

davelin · #3 01-19-2007, 03:24 PM

Nope.
Yup.

Big Folder · #4 01-19-2007, 03:25 PM

both hands look good

edit: some analysis

So a tag raises from late position with two limpers. His range could be bigger than normal given the position and he could be tyring to isolate the limpers. If he's aware that OP is a solid player that changes things.

While we don't respect sbs 3-bet we should at least respect buttons. And its not like this pot is 5 handed with a 3 bet. OP will be in with a tag and a maniac. This doesn't really matter that much if he misses his set since he can fold. However if he hits a OESD(rare, but could happen) he could be in the middle of a raise fest. I don't like calling 2 cold here given the fact that it would just be him and two aggressive players and that TAG might cap behind him.

Point Blank · #5 01-19-2007, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1

Button is TAG (16/12/2), SB is a maniac (26/24/3.5)

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

depending on how you would play 77, I think this is a fold in the first spot (also depending on game; who is behind you)
once it's two back I think you're not wrong in folding
alternatively, call and raise any flop (if BTN doesn't cap)

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

Villain is 69/15/0.5
BB is 52/0/0.2

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4, 4. UTG posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

I guess this is somewhat marginal, however with the likelyhood that BB will come along, UTG+1 definitely calling and the option of still getting UTG calling, I was thinking it's ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold ... not enough players in here to make it worth playing a small pocket pair - if you are, instead, in the bb and sb calls here I think you can call with a small pocket (in the small blind you really aren't getting that much of 'a deal')

Scary_Tiger · #6 01-19-2007, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nope.
Yup.

[/ QUOTE ]

fretelöo · #7 01-19-2007, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I'd call because I'm discounting SBs 3-bet.

Hand 2 is close so it probably doesn't matter. Understand there aren't many flops you are going to be putting any money in on though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: Of course.

Hand 1 though: Does it really matter? As my set-odds are pretty much screwed with only 2 guys and a 3bet pf, I rely a lot on my hand holding it's own without hitting a set. With a maniac and a TAG in the hand, don't I get very much the worst of it (folding the winner if maniac starts raising - showing down the looser when TAG stays until showdown) most of the time?

kerowo · #8 01-19-2007, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I'd call because I'm discounting SBs 3-bet.

Hand 2 is close so it probably doesn't matter. Understand there aren't many flops you are going to be putting any money in on though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: Of course.

Hand 1 though: Does it really matter? As my set-odds are pretty much screwed with only 2 guys and a 3bet pf, I rely a lot on my hand holding it's own without hitting a set. With a maniac and a TAG in the hand, don't I get very much the worst of it (folding the winner if maniac starts raising - showing down the looser when TAG stays until showdown) most of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of this depends on your reads of SB, is he a maniac who has a stuck raise button? Will he fold after he has 3-bet pre-flop? Basically the reason I would call hand 1 is because I know I'm going to get paid off a lot if I hit my set. If SB plays well post flop it isn't as easy a decision. Trying to play this hand for anything but set value is going to be too expensive.

sccrneo · #9 01-19-2007, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1

Button is TAG (16/12/2), SB is a maniac (26/24/3.5)

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7, 7.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, Button raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

depending on how you would play 77, I think this is a fold in the first spot (also depending on game; who is behind you)
once it's two back I think you're not wrong in folding
alternatively, call and raise any flop (if BTN doesn't cap)

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you know everyone including the SB is going to fold(i.e. very tight table), I think the initial call with 77 is fine. That is how I would play the hand. After raise and reraise, I am folding it.

Aaron W. · #10 01-19-2007, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I'd call because I'm discounting SBs 3-bet.

Hand 2 is close so it probably doesn't matter. Understand there aren't many flops you are going to be putting any money in on though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2: Of course.

Hand 1 though: Does it really matter? As my set-odds are pretty much screwed with only 2 guys and a 3bet pf, I rely a lot on my hand holding it's own without hitting a set. With a maniac and a TAG in the hand, don't I get very much the worst of it (folding the winner if maniac starts raising - showing down the looser when TAG stays until showdown) most of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analysis of Hand 1 is bad. You get a lot of money with the best of it when you flop a set. Maniac will easily give you more than enough action to cover you when you miss your set (this is the essence of implied odds). Furthermore, TAG is a little more likely to pay off with a decent hand because of the presence of the maniac.