River bet?

[unterfish]

Hi,

I feel I have missed a lot of value bets on the river lately.
Is this one of them?

Pacific Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets </font>, BB calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Is this turn bet spew? I thought it was a b/f situation. Is checking through better here?

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Is this another b/f?

[KyndGroove]

I'm playing it the same. B/f turn is fine with me. If I check behind, I'm calling a bet on almost any river so we lose the same when behind but have a chance to take it down on the turn if we're ahead.

The pot is not large enough on the river where I could see a worse hand calling enough for b/f to be for value.

[unterfish]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check behind, I'm calling a bet on almost any river so we lose the same when behind but have a chance to take it down on the turn if we're ahead.


[/ QUOTE ]
But we want a call when we are ahead, dont we?

[CrMenace]

*grunch*

Reads would help tremendously here. Against a loose passive opponent I'm much more likely to b/f the turn hoping for a fold or cheap showdown. An intelligent opponent would have folded this flop with anything that didn't hit in a pot this small.

On the river, I would value bet this against a LP oponent and check behind a tight or tricky one.

Against an unknown, I guess my default line would be b/f, check behind.

[KyndGroove]

Not too many ways he could have a FD aside from something like Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

As for the other hands that are behind, unless you have a read that a check on the turn will induce a bet on the river from a small pocket pair we probably won't be getting another bet from him either way unless sucks out so why not take it down on the turn?

I guess this is read dependant, but against an unknown I'd play the hand the same way as you.

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I check behind, I'm calling a bet on almost any river so we lose the same when behind but have a chance to take it down on the turn if we're ahead.


[/ QUOTE ]
But we want a call when we are ahead, dont we?

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble is, if we are called it is increasingly likely that we are behind. But we'd rather bet the turn than call the river because a) we charge any draws, and b) there is a small chance of folding a better hand. For the same price as the c/c, we get those two benefits.

BTW, against a tricky opponent, who might bluff raise the turn, we want the c, c/c instead as we fear the c/r.

[unterfish]

Reads then: the usual calling station type of fish.
Stats now: 60/15/2.5 which seems quite LAGgy actually.

[KyndGroove]

Given your read at the time, I like the b/f turn for the reasons I mentioned above. Plus you'll never see a bluff check raise from a calling station fish on this turn.

Given the actual stats I much prefer checking behind then calling any bet on the river since this often will induce a bet from many hands we beat.

[unterfish]

I think you are right.
The problem on the turn is: we arent getting called by a worse hand often enough. So it is probably better to induce a bluff or to bet/call the river.
I say call because especially aggressive opponents love to bluff-bet or bluff-raise the river with air. At least thats what I have observed.

[sccrneo]

My default line against an unknown or calling station would be to b/f turn and check behind on the river UI.

Against a LAG or bluff-happy villain, I am checking behind on the turn and calling any river bet. If it would get checked to me again on the river, I am probably checking behind again.