AK-Hit on river

[omaha]

I couldnt find the hh on PT, so here goes.

I had been thieving quite a bit, and then no one was standing up to me, so i started stealing a bit more, etc. Only one other player, who is the villain here, was aggro. I think he was TAG, but more like a slag, as no one was standing up to him either. He was cbetting everything, and most were folding. Neither of us had shown down a hand, and i think that only the two of us knew anything about what was happening. All of my thieving had been against blinds, i had not been called by a non blind.

Blinds 50/100
I get AK in ep, raise to 300
Villain calls

Okay, on each other occasion i had stolen, i was against a blind or two.

I think to myself, he has a stronger hand than me, i am oop, against an aggro player, i will tread wearily.

Flop comes j 9 5 rainbow. I decide not to cbet (the first time i havent cbet). I know villain has been looking at me, and would know i have been raising light, and thieving, as has he. I think if i had bet, i would be looking at a raise, which i wouldnt be able to call.

Assuming he called with a pp, he has me either beat, or basically drawing dead if he has a set.

VIllain checks. I remember, a seriously aggro player who checks, has either i) nothing, in which case there is no need to bet, or ii) a monster, in which case there is no need to bet. I have one of those- THis player has changed his style, and that monster premonition is making its presence felt in a twighlight zone kinda way!

Turn is a brick, rainbow, I check, villain checks.

River is an A, giving me TPTK.

Pot is about 750, I bet 600, villain goes all in for 2000 or so.

Hero calls.

Villain shows 99 for a set of nines.


Results deliberately posted, as i wish to discuss BOTH players in this hand. Please excuse me if this sounds like trash that belongs in BBV, this is not my intention

GIven my very very laggy image, and the fact that i was beating up on the blinds so easily, am i correct in basically playing this whiffed ak so passively on flop and turn?

Given the lack of action, i am likely to be ahead of his range on the river. I may have been reverse dominated by an ax where x hit on the flop, and drawing dead. I think its more likely that i have him outkicked, and he doesnt believe i have an Ace. Of the hands before, i now beat a lot of pps, and he may even be bluff raising.

How is my line on the river? Obviously, i am not folding, and the raise is not overly huge, and i am pretty much pot commited and calling, right?


Secondly, lets look at how villain played his hand.

An ep raiser, i have 99, i call. Very good, I could rr, but this is probably the only other player on the table who seems to know whats going on

Flop gives me middle set, and i check after pf raiser checks. Bad

I guess this is the bit i really dont like. Yes, he has a monster, but there are always draws out there that can beat me

If villain bets, and i fold, he doesnt gain much from his monster. Obviously, he wants to give me a free card or two, to catch up to a second best hand, which will happily pay him off. In this situation, it worked very well.

However, If I am drawing to a better hand, such as a st8 or flush, then i will be the one punishing him for slowplaying.

When i am in villains situation on the flop, i tend to weak bet it. THis gives me the opportunity of winning straight away against rubbish (which doesnt deserve to outdraw me), and allows me to be check raised. I think thats the thing that other people forget, particularly when they limp or call with AA, that is, by raising, they allow everyone else to do what we want them to do -RAISE!. The other night, i had aa vs kk pf. We both raised till we were all in. SLowplaying on my part would have been disasterous because the kk player was happy to do what i had wanted him to do-play for all of his chips pf!

Checking the turn again i have similar reservations about. He is allowing another free card to drop off.

River for him is standard, and i agree with his all in shove.

For me, I basically never slowplay. I love people who slowplay against me, particularly the min raisers from UTG when i am in the blind. I get odds to play, and can cfold easily, but if i hit, I can check call, then craise turn, and bust them. Had they raised properly, they would have won a small pot when no one had a worthy hand, but because they gave me implied odds, I am happy to play!

My feeling with monsters is similar, but not to the same degree, as the chances of outdrawing a monster are much harder than before. Ie if villain has a set, and i hypothetically had a flush draw, i need to hit a flush draw, and dodge the board pairing in order to win. This is much harder than just pairing one of my cards.

I still dont think letting cards come off is a good idea. I cant remember if the board on the turn was rainbow, or not, but i can remember on sooooooo many occasions top or middle set killed on the river by an obvious flush, or being hammered in a multiway pot by a straight that should not have ever been allowed to draw for nothing.

Any thought on my, or villains play?

[1tripz1]

He took a gamble with his set and it payed off. He thought about you having nothing, prob put you on somehting like AK and let you hit. Fairly risky but im inclined to play sets the same way because the results can be great.

[KingOtter]

Wow, that's a long message.

You're an aggressive player with a bigger stack (I assume), his stack is probably about average, he has a set, it was heads-up. If it really was rainbow, and the turn really was a brick, doesn't sound like there were many straights/flushes out there to beat him, so without more particulars the situation sounds right to trap. Not to mention he could be 'drawing' to a boat, too, so he has outs against straights and flushes.

Would you have called a small bet, say 250 on the turn, or folded?

I certainly wouldn't advise playing like this against more players, but I wouldn't call it bad.

[omaha]

Yeah, sorry bout the long message, got kinda carried away!

I was basically in cfold mode. When i am aggro, i tend to be quite loose when first in , but vv tight after limpers/raisers who are not maniacs.

I think he would have rr pf with qq+, and i put him on a medium pp.

SInce i missed, i am behind, and possibly dead. I just got that feeling when he checked- i am just not interested in the hand at all.

The rest of the table was passive, and thievery was working wonders.

I would have cfolded on flop or turn for even a third pot bet. Just thought i needed to hit to win and was happy to gamble against other weaker players. He had raised pot on th e flop a couple of times, which is why i didnt bother betting.

Once i hit on the river, i think my fate was sealed though!

[Bakes]

600 riv bet is a bit much, i would bet like 450. fold to river c/r.

[Kala1928]

Basically once you didn't bet the flop he knew that you were drawing dead against his set unless you have TT. So he just tried to let you hit something and stack you.

[omaha]

Kala, absolutely right, i was dead, and was unlucky enough to catch half a hand!

Is everyone else folding to the river raise?

Pot is 3300, calling costs 1400

This is a situation I find really hard to drop, particularly against an aggro player who could bluff raise me. I tend to shove against tighties in situations like this, which works quite well.

If he was a passive player, i would drop in a second, but he just seemed a tricky enough player to do that.

[StevoC]

Here's the problem:
"VIllain checks. I remember, a seriously aggro player who checks, has either i) nothing, in which case there is no need to bet, or ii) a monster, in which case there is no need to bet."
Your analysis shouldn't change just because you hit an A on the river. He still has either i or ii. The only hands I imagine that he'd call a 4/5th pot size bet (that result in you winning the pot) are AK, AQ, or A10.

More often your analysis is correct. Confirmation of that is he checked flop and turn. There is still no reason to bet river, especially 80% of the pot. Because now he still either has nothing or a monster. The ace isn't a scare card (for him) and most likely doesn't affect his hand. It is possible that he had a small pp and was checking it down, but still no reason to bet that much on the river.

To sum it up, throughout the line you thought villian has nothing or monster. Going from A high to TPTK shouldn't change your position. I would check the river. If he bets small I'd call as he has been thieving and might think the A is a scare for you. If it is a good sized bet I'd fold.