When to raise the flop with medium hands?

[DandyJam]

After reviewing my game at the $0.5/1 6-max tables I started thinking I might not be betting/raising the flop enough with my medium strength hands such as TP, focusing too much on keeping the pot size managable. This, I think, puts me in the awkward sitation that I don't charge draws enough while I often have to pay off draws that hit on the turn or river since I have underrepresented my hand and not taken command. I find that this happens both when I'm InP as well as OOP.

I have no particular hand examples at the moment but I thought maybe you guys have some good examples where you bet/raise to charge draws, or check/call to keep the pot small? Examples both InP and OOP appreciated.

Here's a made up hand of the type of situation I'm talking about:

Hero gets K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and raises to $3.5 first in from the CO. Button folds. SB, some typical 30/12/2, calls. BB folds.

Flop ($8): K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB leads for $6. Hero calls $6.

Turn ($20): 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB leads for $15. Hero???

Now this is a typical situation where I have no clue where I stand. Have SB bet a draw? Did it just hit? Did he have a stronger made hand on the flop already? If I call it's often just to find myself folding to a river bet. If Villain had checked I often just check behind. Then when the river brings a blank, most of the time I feel obligated to call a bet since Villain could be betting a busted draw or looking for a cheap showdown with a weaker holding. However, what's most likely to happen is that Villain has a stronger hand and I'm the one paying off.

I really thought I was on top of my flop game, but as said I feel I might have been too eager to manage pot size instead of getting value from my good hands.

All input welcome!

[rockusteady]

It seems to me like you need to widen your range of hands you raise on the flop with. Anything from TPGK to FDs to sets-to air. If you only wait until you have to nuts to raise a donk bet, you've become pretty predictable (not that I'm saying you have).

Check out this post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...page=&vc=1

The texture of the flop is a little difference, but it pretty much covers the same concept you're facing now.

And if i understand this right, the standard play is to call most flop bets for pot control etc, and if i get this wrong, please correct me, what dbitel is advocating is widening your range of hands you raise the flop with in the hopes that villain actually starts pushing some hands we beat.

There's a lot to be said on the subject and your sample hand is a little scarier than Dbitel's but i still think it applies. hope this helps.

[Freelancer]

I have been thinking about this subject a bit the past couple of days and I don't mind a flop call here, you have to call the turn though and you might find a fold on the river.

These type of donkbets onto the preflop agressor from your typical donks (and sometimes decent players as well) are 99% of the time draws/middle pair/TP weak kicker type of hands. I would raise here the first time around with ATC because they'll fold whatever they have a lot. If they do happen to stick around you can usually peg them on reasonable tight range and act accordingly on the turn.

The reason I might call here is because you'll fold out most hands you beat if you raise so there's not a lot of value. In this particalur example I call the turn and if he fires another big bet on the river I'll find a fold unless I know villain is overly agressive (this guy doesn't seem to be).

[Timmy/Jimmy]

If you just call his turn bet you have no idea where you`r at. Is villain beting a 7, maybe he hit a 9 and think he`s good or just leading to get a cheap river for his flush draw . By raising you punish the draws, get payed of by a weaker K maybe even a 9 and can fold to a push.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you just call his turn bet you have no idea where you`r at. Is villain beting a 7, maybe he hit a 9 and think he`s good or just leading to get a cheap river for his flush draw . By raising you punish the draws, get payed of by a weaker K maybe even a 9 and can fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean raising on the turn? You get payed of by only a flush (and thats a maybe) and if you get called your beat 99% of the time.

[DandyJam]

Here's a sample hand from my last session where I decided to throw pot control out the window and raise the flop to punish draws instead. Ok spot to raise? Villain unknown.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $120.70
UTG+1: $100.85
CO: $127.20
Hero: $100.05
SB: $102.35
BB: $70.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $18</font>

[carnivalhobo]

dandy i think thats a fine spot for a raise.