right bet to knock out the flushdraw

[TanukiTen]

I was just wondering: If i have toppair, let's say Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with the flop of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

there are only one or two players left, it's my bet(on the button or first to bet). So assuming no one indicated a move of having anything better before, i thought, that i should make a bet that is somewhat above the amount, that a player with 9outs(maybe 12 for a king or ace) for the flushdraw(or less for a straightdraw) would have to fold if he's not a gambler because my bet makes the potodds say no.

Is that correct thinking? if so, is there a faster way to figure out the right bet, than trying different numbers of how much the bet would have to be with 9/12 outs?

[jordiepop]

someone with two overs and the flush draw isnt going anywhere. but if ur worried about a flush draw. they need about 4-1 pot odds to call profitably. so u wanna deny them that. if there is ten dollars in the pot bet about 7.50 or so. there is also the issue of implied odds. if your the type of person who wont fold ur pair when the flush comes in, then someone can bank on getting more money out of you.... you should read hoh vol 1 and phil gordans lgb

[nuclear500]

Depends on buyin and how strongly you feel thats what they actually have.

Depends how strong you feel their flush draw is. If its AKc, they probably aren't folding, even if you overbet - in which case they may very well push over the top.

Some people can't fold a flush draw anyway, they pay no attention to pot odds or anything else. They are just chasing their draw.

[questions]

Isn't it either Sklansky or Harrington writes that a big part of making your money in NLHE is penalizing those chasing draws.

[damedley]

First of all, there's a huge difference between facing one opponent in that circumstance and facing two. If the first player after you calls the second player will be getting good odds with just about any draw. However, if the first player to act is holding a vulnerable hand similar to yours the fear of the player still to act might allow even a small bet to push him out, even though he'd make an easy call heads-up. It's a much dicier situation, and much more complex to analyze. Making a big bet might keep the first player from calling and deny the second player the odds to call, but it might also scream "I'm protecting a vulnerable hand!" If a player reads this and comes over the top he gives you a difficult decision. So you really have to know your players to make good decisions, imo. In a total vacuum I'd say a pot-sized bet is correct without being too suspicious.

Heads-up, someone comfortable chasing flush draws and loose enough to get paid off frequently can call a pot-sized bet on the flop and still make it profitable. Gavin Smith said this on The Circuit radio program, and I also believe it to be true. So I'd say that the advice given of around 3/4 the pot is fine against most normal or tight players (I'd only bet 2/3rds but I make a LOT of con't bets this size so it doesn't apply unless you use my style). But you really have to push the loose players by making a pot-sized bet. In fact, I would make it a habit to lead out strongly against this type of player any time you hit anything, and (depending on his reaction) sometimes when you don't.

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
someone with two overs and the flush draw isnt going anywhere. but if ur worried about a flush draw. they need about 4-1 pot odds to call profitably. so u wanna deny them that. if there is ten dollars in the pot bet about 7.50 or so. there is also the issue of implied odds. if your the type of person who wont fold ur pair when the flush comes in, then someone can bank on getting more money out of you.... you should read hoh vol 1 and phil gordans lgb

[/ QUOTE ]
No. On the flop, a flush draw is about 2:1, and in most cases, you'd have to bet more than the pot to make a call unprofitable.

[JOHNY CA$H]

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[ QUOTE ]
someone with two overs and the flush draw isnt going anywhere. but if ur worried about a flush draw. they need about 4-1 pot odds to call profitably. so u wanna deny them that. if there is ten dollars in the pot bet about 7.50 or so. there is also the issue of implied odds. if your the type of person who wont fold ur pair when the flush comes in, then someone can bank on getting more money out of you.... you should read hoh vol 1 and phil gordans lgb

[/ QUOTE ]
No. On the flop, a flush draw is about 2:1, and in most cases, you'd have to bet more than the pot to make a call unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You only have one card until the next betting round. 2/3 of pot eliminates pot odds, although implied odds are not taken into account.

[ispiked]

[ QUOTE ]
No. On the flop, a flush draw is about 2:1, and in most cases, you'd have to bet more than the pot to make a call unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the odds of making a flush draw by the river are 33% if you flop a draw, then about 18% if you don't make it on the turn. So the odds are roughly 3:1 on the flop, and 5:1 on the turn.

[tom10167]

The implication that has been poorly explained is that you will never give them a free card on the turn, e.g. if you bet the flop and the turn they need to get 4:1.

[otnemem]

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[ QUOTE ]
No. On the flop, a flush draw is about 2:1, and in most cases, you'd have to bet more than the pot to make a call unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the odds of making a flush draw by the river are 33% if you flop a draw, then about 18% if you don't make it on the turn. So the odds are roughly 3:1 on the flop, and 5:1 on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
33% is 2:1, not 3:1.