Dealer screws up....what would have happened?

ItzMrFish2U · #1 01-11-2007, 04:39 PM

So i'm at a table of maniacs (5-6 players in a capped PF hand). flop was something like 8s 9d 10d

capped flop bet with 4 callers.

turn is ks
3 bet with 3 players

river is Qc

hands are turned

pocket 77 vs. jj vs. kq.

dealer says pair of jacks (and mucks them), pair of 7's (and mucks them) and two pair and moves the pot towards the guy with two pair. the cards are now all in the muck face up. I said what about the straight. Dealer says there was no straight. someone else agrees there was a straight, the dealer fishes out the JJ and reallocates the pot.

was this legitimate? if I hadn't caught this what becomes of the pot and if the player later realizes he had a straight does he have any recourse?

AKQJ10 · #2 01-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Yes, entirely so. JJ tabled her hand and the dealer mucked them, so the cards speak. Obviously it's entirely different if JJ mucks without tabling them.

Not sure about the hypothetical but I think once the next hand is dealt and JJ doesn't speak up, it's too late to rectify. I'm sure RR et. al will correct me if I'm wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Example #1493854389924893 of why you don't let the cards out of your possession until YOU, not the dealer, is convinced you didn't win. The dealer can't deal the next hand if you won't give him back his cards, so he'll have to summon the floor. But no harm done in the OP as long as KQ didn't start adding the pot to his stack.

Percula · #3 01-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Cards speak. Cards that are from three hands ago that suddenly speak up to their prior owner, are likely to be silent to everyone else.

that_pope · #4 01-11-2007, 05:13 PM

As long as everyone saw them, and the next hand hasn't began, the pot would righfully go to the JJ. I will speak up 99% of the time if I see the pot going to the wrong person (I don't know what the 1% of the time would be, because it hasn't happened, but nobody's perfect), I speak up and get it fixed.

If the pot has been pushed and already stacked, the action can be recreated pretty easily and the bets placed back in. If not, there is always the very timely action of getting the tapes.

Rick Nebiolo · #5 01-11-2007, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure about the hypothetical but I think once the next hand is dealt and JJ doesn't speak up, it's too late to rectify. I'm sure RR et. al will correct me if I'm wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

From Robert's Rules

"5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.

6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, but the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been complied with, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.

From page 6 of the Commerce rulebook:

"43. The proper time to draw attention to an irregularity in your cards or to an error is when it occurs. No decision can be made by a floorperson once a new hand has begun. Any objection must be made before the first riffle of the shuffle for the next hand."

Robert's Rules don't seem to allow for a decision after the next hand begins.

But the Commerce rulebook (in fact all the LA books) use the bolded wording above which in practice means someone higher in the food chain than a floorperson (e.g., a shift manager) can look at the tape or make a decision later. Generally a wise floor would only bother the shift manager if it seemed highly likely there was a mistake (i.e., there is significant agreement and corroboration).

~ Rick

ItzMrFish2U · #6 01-11-2007, 05:54 PM

So was I out of line pointing out the dealer's mistake? I wasn't in the hand. I guess this would violate the "don't speak when you're not in the hand" rule. any thoughts?

AngusThermopyle · #7 01-11-2007, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So was I out of line pointing out the dealer's mistake? I wasn't in the hand. I guess this would violate the "don't speak when you're not in the hand" rule. any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?
If there is a mistake about to be made, you should always speak up, in the hand or not. IMHO, even if you are on the rail.

ItzMrFish2U · #8 01-11-2007, 05:58 PM

I took a bit of heat from the guy with the two pair. But I didn't feel I was in the wrong.

lossage · #9 01-11-2007, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I took a bit of heat from the guy with the two pair. But I didn't feel I was in the wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
The guy with two pair is, therefore, an angle-shooting assclown. Trying to get the pot when you verifiably did not have the best hand is grounds for nut kicking.

jjp · #10 01-11-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So was I out of line pointing out the dealer's mistake? I wasn't in the hand. I guess this would violate the "don't speak when you're not in the hand" rule. any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

AS I understand it, once cards are tabled face up you should speak up to make sure that the right hand gets paid. You should not tell the guy who is about to muck his hand face down, "hey, don't you see your straight?"