Was I Wrong?

[ReidDeCardes]

I was playing 3-6 last night, Borgta, at a full table. Fairly loose game, 5 or so to the flop. I'm in BB and get Kx clubs. Pot gets raised, I call for 1 bet. Flop comes with 2 clubs. I check, and call the late position bet becuse pot is big. Turn is a blank. I check, there is a bet, but there is a good 10 or 12 big bets, so I call. 3 to the river. River brings 2 of clubs, bingo! I check because I know the late position bettor will bet. I raise, he calls as does a drunk loose player. I win. Bettor is quite upset.

Did I suck him out? I think I had good odds.

Is "suck him out" the right expression or did I just become a prison wife?

[Harv72b]

This hand is utterly standard in every way, except that you could have led the flop and/or river, depending on your relative position to the PFR (flop) and how likely the drunk is to call 2 cold (river).

[Niediam]

Assuming that the PFR was in late position I lead the flop (hoping to be able to build a big pot) and lead the river (hopeing to trap players inbetween me and the PFR).

Yes you 'sucked out on him' but that shouldn't be considered a bad thing. Villian in the hand was just frustrated because he lost a big pot on the river. And yes you definately had great odds all points in the hand to continue playing.

[TripleH68]

You got lucky.
Lucky to collect so many bets on the river when the 3rd hit.

[JulesMiddleton]

Hello!

When you see 4 colours, than you have 4,6:1 chance for a 5th colours, and your flush will hit all players.
Little math:
Your game cost was 3,5BB. When you won many as 3,5*4,6 = 16,1BB than that was a good game.
This is simpli: when you have more than 4 or 5 enemys, wait the flush, or less than 4 don't call you need fold the hole cards.

[argybargy2002]

I don't know the texture of the flop (ie was there an ace or not) but this looks like a perfect time to go for a checkraise on the flop. This is good because it gets plenty of money in the pot and may help to clean up your king outs. This means that you might get someone with a better king to fold so that you can win either by hitting your flush or the king. When you flop a flush you are generally going to be in the hand to the river. Don't be afraid of sucking out on someone, flush draws are a big part of limit holdem.

[W. Deranged]

I need to know a bit more about the way the hand is structured, but I think there were several mistakes on this hand. Frankly, they have nothing to do with "sucking out." Of course you should draw to this hand in a big pot. Folding is TERRIBLE poker in this spot. But you didn't maximize the value you did have:

Mistake #1. Check-calling the flop is not generally going to be good. There are two plays to consider:

a. Leading the flop. This way, you get more bets in. When you have a nut or near-nut flush draw like this, and you have the potential for getting 4+ players in the pot, you want as many bets going in as possible. Since you'll win around 1/3 of the time, if four people are paying to stay around you win money every time bets go in.

b. Check-raise the flop. In this case, you may cost yourself customers, but you may gain equity by getting some opponents to fold better Ks and increase your chance of winning by making one pair.


In my opinion, I think that (a) is probably better here, but I'd need to see the more exact layout of the hand. I think that at this type of game you'd have a tough time folding out better Ks often, and those players who fold for two often have very poor hands you want staying around to pad the pot. Also, the likelihood of winning with one pair in this scenario is not that great, so I prefer cashing the multiway equity edge.


Mistake #2. I don't like the river check-raise. Check-raising the river will often shut down the hand to just you and the late position player. Sure, you get two bets from him, but if you simply lead the river, you may get a bet from him and possibly two+ other opponents. You also don't take the very significant risk that your opponent will check the river because he fears that the flush draw has in fact gotten there. Again, I'd need to see more detail, but your explanation that you "checked the river because you knew the late position player would bet" sounds suspect to me.




I think this is the type of hand you can learn a lot from. It is the type of hand where ignorant players think you are being "fishy" by "chasing." In reality, that part of the hand is correct, but you may not be appreciating some other, very important subtleties about how to maximize value when you are drawing to a big hand. Instead of worrying about the criticisms of other, start focusing on whether every decision you make is maximizing the value of the hand that you hold.

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing 3-6 last night, Borgta, at a full table. Fairly loose game, 5 or so to the flop. I'm in BB and get Kx clubs. Pot gets raised, I call for 1 bet. Flop comes with 2 clubs. I check, and call the late position bet becuse pot is big. Turn is a blank. I check, there is a bet, but there is a good 10 or 12 big bets, so I call. 3 to the river. River brings 2 of clubs, bingo! I check because I know the late position bettor will bet. I raise, he calls as does a drunk loose player. I win. Bettor is quite upset.

Did I suck him out? I think I had good odds.

Is "suck him out" the right expression or did I just become a prison wife?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%, but would add depending on the position and texture that a c/r on the flop is also an option. NH.

He could say you "sucked out" on him, because you were behind until the river, but you played it right all the way, you had the odds to call. Its not a bad beat in any way.

[ReidDeCardes]

Thanks for all of the responses.

This hand struck me when I was in it. Partly because of the size of the pot and the reaction of the main opponent. But also because of playing a strong drawing correctly. The responses gave me much to ponder. Good thing I enjoy reading!

[Grease]

Well, I think you made some mistakes here, but not because you were drawing.

I would be more likely to call with a hand like 67s in the BB than A2s, as you're less likely to be dominated if you flop a pair. That said, I would probably fold PF, but I'm not convinced that is correct.

After you flop a flush draw, I lead out right there for value against 5 players. If everyone calls and the PFR pops it, I reraise.

However, I don't do this on the turn if I miss, I just check and call.

Lead the river. He may get scared and check behind, and you just missed a lot of bets. If you're lucky, a smaller flush will raise so you can 3-bet.

Don't defend your actions. Just smile and say "I got lucky."