My name is Chris..and I suck at $25 NL 6max (kind of long)

Prodigy54321 · #1 01-05-2007, 05:54 PM

alright, here's the deal...I've only been playing $25NL 6max for about 14,000 hand...

I am being driven insane by a couple things...

the first is that I am pretty sure I started out running somewhat bad...I don't expect you to believe that though..and although I'm pretty sure of it, I'd still rather just assume that I am making massive amounts of mistakes and I need to learn more..but, in any even, running bad isn't what this is about. (I don't think)

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the problem I am having (and have been having since I started) is that my c-bets are losing me a lot of money...

I am raising hands that I should be raising..and to the suggested amounts..of course they're probably off by a little since I am still new to this..but I'm pretty sure that most of you would agree with most of my raises and the sizes of my raises..

I typically get one caller...then I miss the flop and c-bet for close to the size of the pot..then about 40% of the time it gets called, I miss the turn, get bet into or I check then get bet into..and I fold since I have either nothing or an underpair or something..about 35% of the time I get raised..either a minraise..or a little more up to say 2x the size of my c-bet...

basically, I am losing a lot of money with my c-bets..and I am not just blindly c-betting every flop..I basically check behind on the types of flops that the c-bet quiz in the FAQ suggests..I would guess that I c-bt about 80-90% of the time..does this sound about right?

so I am getting very concerned..I would really like to know if either..

1) I have not played enough hands..the amount backplay I am facing is not normal...other people are most likely hitting their hands more often that will be the norm.

2) the amount of backplay I am facing IS normal..I am most likely just losing money with my c-bets because I am not hitting as often as I should

3) the amount of backplay that I am facing IS normal..I should cut wayyy down on my c-betting frequency

4) the amount of backplay that I am facist IS normal..I should grow some balls and start 3 betting when they raise my c-bets..or firing another bullet on the turn if they call my c-bet..

I got very frustrated a little while ago after having about 8 c-bets in a row called or raised..so I decided to take 2 stabs at #4...I just really can't imagine that everyone is hitting their hands so often..so I decided I'd try to find out whether I am actually behind when they play back at me, or a memo has been sent to all $25NL 6m players that they should never fold to my c-bets...err here is my 2 hand sample size of trying that..

in the first hand, villain was 40/22/3.5..in the second, villain was insane with 68/16/4.5 stats..so I wasn't going crazy as hell here..although I did have a feeling that trying this would be -EV

******* Hand 1 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $27.25
UTG+1: $4.75
CO: $6.90
Pro-Diggidy: $28.40
SB: $23.10
BB: $25.20

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pro-Diggidy is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Pro-Diggidy raises to $1.25, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($3.85, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Pro-Diggidy bets $3, BB raises to $6.5, UTG folds, Pro-Diggidy raises all-in $27.15, BB calls all-in $17.45.
Uncalled bets: $3.2 returned to Pro-Diggidy.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($51.75, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $51.75)

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($51.75, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $51.75)

Results:
Final pot: $51.75
BB showed Qc Qs

******* Hand 2 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $29.60
UTG+1: $37.15
CO: $25.85
Pro-Diggidy: $23.50
SB: $20.20
BB: $42.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pro-Diggidy is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, Pro-Diggidy raises to $1, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Pro-Diggidy bets $2.5, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($8, 2 players)
SB checks, Pro-Diggidy bets $6, SB raises all-in $16.7, Pro-Diggidy calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($41.4, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $41.4)

Results:
Final pot: $41.4
SB showed 6s 7d

it's only two hands, so I guess it could still be possible that people are frequently playing back at me with trash..but I don't exactly want to play more hands like this to find out..

so I turn to you..what the hell is going on [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I have a plenty big enough BR to handle even a huge downswing at this level, but I would like to try to figure this out before that happens

Trying to NOT suck at poker,

Chris

EDIT: of course there's no way you could determine which (if any) of the 4 numbers is the case unless you saw all of the hands I played..I just want a general opinion..perhaps you have had a similar experience and can make a good guess at what the case is?

4_2_it · #2 01-05-2007, 06:00 PM

Hand 1 -- Why shove on that dry of a flop? Only a better hand is calling. I'd call and see what the turn brings. Sometimes calling is more scary than raising.

Hand 2 -- Fold to the turn check raise. This is almost always a hand that beats one pair (search SSNL for Baluga Theorem).

People are never bluffing as often as we would like to believe. When most 0 and 1st level thinkers bet or raise it's becuase they have a hand.

BTW, we are suck at poker. Our goal should be to suck less than our opponents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Prodigy54321 · #3 01-05-2007, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- Why shove on that dry of a flop? Only a better hand is calling. I'd call and see what the turn brings. Sometimes calling is more scary than raising.

Hand 2 -- Fold to the turn check raise. This is almost always a hand that beats one pair (search SSNL for Baluga Theorem).

People are never bluffing as often as we would like to believe. When most 0 and 1st level thinkers bet or raise it's becuase they have a hand.

BTW, we are suck at poker. Our goal should be to suck less than our opponents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

as I said..those two hands were a result of some tilt..I stopped right after they happened to cool off..I never really tilted playing STTs..even during 30+ OOTM streaks..for some reason this pushed me over the edge..

hand 1 was definitely terrible..I just really needed to see what they were raising me with for once, and it was worth $10 or so to me at that point

on hand 2..is my preflop/flop/turn play (besides the call of the push) good?...I think it is..the guy was playing so wildly and I was getting good enough ods that I though that my call of the push might even be best..guess not.

DeuceSeven · #4 01-05-2007, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- Why shove on that dry of a flop? Only a better hand is calling. I'd call and see what the turn brings. Sometimes calling is more scary than raising.

Hand 2 -- Fold to the turn check raise. This is almost always a hand that beats one pair (search SSNL for Baluga Theorem).

People are never bluffing as often as we would like to believe. When most 0 and 1st level thinkers bet or raise it's becuase they have a hand.

BTW, we are suck at poker. Our goal should be to suck less than our opponents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

as I said..those two hands were a result of some tilt..I stopped right after they happened to cool off..I never really tilted playing STTs..even during 30+ OOTM streaks..for some reason this pushed me over the edge..

hand 1 was definitely terrible..I just really needed to see what they were raising me with for once, and it was worth $10 or so to me at that point

on hand 2..is my preflop/flop/turn play (besides the call of the push) good?...I think it is..the guy was playing so wildly and I was getting good enough ods that I though that my call of the push might even be best..guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 2 you have to protect you hand from a flush draw, your getting huge odds to call his all in, looks fine to me especially if the maniac will do this with tp. Hand 1...I've been there too many times. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

4_2_it · #5 01-05-2007, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
on hand 2..is my preflop/flop/turn play (besides the call of the push) good?...I think it is..the guy was playing so wildly and I was getting good enough ods that I though that my call of the push might even be best..guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd most likely check behind on the turn and call a black card river bet. You have one pair and sometimes even maniacs get hands.

FWIW, you didn't play the hand spew monkey bad. I think your turn bet is an example of a small mistake that leads to an inevitable much larger mistake (getting AI with a losing hand).

This thread explains why I think a fold is best on the turn.

DeuceSeven · #6 01-05-2007, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on hand 2..is my preflop/flop/turn play (besides the call of the push) good?...I think it is..the guy was playing so wildly and I was getting good enough ods that I though that my call of the push might even be best..guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd most likely check behind on the turn and call a black card river bet. You have one pair and sometimes even maniacs get hands.

FWIW, you didn't play the hand spew monkey bad. I think your turn bet is an example of a small mistake that leads to an inevitable much larger mistake (getting AI with a losing hand).

This thread explains why I think a fold is best on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link, this has been a pretty interesting thread, thanks OP for posting it.

DeuceSeven · #7 01-05-2007, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 -- Why shove on that dry of a flop? Only a better hand is calling. I'd call and see what the turn brings. Sometimes calling is more scary than raising.

Hand 2 -- Fold to the turn check raise. This is almost always a hand that beats one pair (search SSNL for Baluga Theorem).

People are never bluffing as often as we would like to believe. When most 0 and 1st level thinkers bet or raise it's becuase they have a hand.

BTW, we are suck at poker. Our goal should be to suck less than our opponents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

So what should OP do on the turn? Check it down? There's a good chance villain is on a flush draw and OP needs to protect his hand. I feel after OP bets the turn, getting almost 3:1 odds on his money he is compelled to call.

Edit:
[ QUOTE ]
Second hand: Check behind on turn, if you bet here it is a bluff because no worse hand will call you except an unlikely 10d9d

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this kinda explains it except I'm *assuming* that villain doesn't play well post flop with those stats, don't you bet guys like this to value town?

dashman · #8 01-05-2007, 06:02 PM

My name is also Kris and im finding this as well, I had a hella cooler last night and find many of my cbets getting snapped as well, but when I 3bet or shove these people im almost always beat, therefore my theory is that Stars does not like people named Kris/Chris. Lets start the campaign now and start marching.
-Seriously though Im having the same problem and I've played many hands with you lately.

derosnec · #9 01-05-2007, 06:06 PM

at 25nl 6max people don't play back with trash. they call with trash but rarely if ever play back with trash.

so if someone has a crap hand, they will give you their stack by calling all the way, not by raising you.

when you get raised at 25nl 6max it is a big deal.

ybother · #10 01-05-2007, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
at 25nl 6max people don't play back with trash. they call with trash but rarely if ever play back with trash.

so if someone has a crap hand, they will give you their stack by calling all the way, not by raising you.

when you get raised at 25nl 6max it is a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

op print this post out and stick it on your monitor when you play

fwiw, starting out running bad is better than starting out running too hot and building lots of unrealistic expectations