AJo, A on 3 suited flop, lots of peeps

Poker Gestalt · #1 01-03-2007, 09:07 PM

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero raises...

My thought process on this hand was to wait until the turn and make sure than no heart came. Is this weak tight or am I correct to wait? By doing this am I giving up a small edge for the change to exploit a bigger edge later? I increase not only my pot equity but also increase the amount others people pay. On the other hand many people may have folded on the flop if I had bet out. What do you think?

unterfish · #2 01-03-2007, 09:18 PM

No way. Hero bets the flop. Dont be too afraid of 3-flushes. They happen. And you sometimes loose. And these losses might hurt. But you loose less than you win. Bet it!
And your thoughts are incorrect IMO. Youre giving everybody a free card (6 players!). It actually results in a slowplay of top pair on an extremely drawy board which is unacceptable IMO.

tyler_cracker · #3 01-03-2007, 09:22 PM

This is not a "3 suited flop"; this is a 1-suited flop.

You cannot check the flop because by doing so you give a free card to a giant field in a giant pot. People with big [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s are never folding anyway, so your elaborate plan is all for nought.

Poker Gestalt · #4 01-03-2007, 09:23 PM

Im normally not afraid of 3 flush boards at all... I would always bet this into 4 opp, sometimes 5, but 6? Im not worried someone floped a flush because that usually doesnt happen but i figure if i bet, most everyone will call but some will fold, and if i check then bet turn there is a much higher change more ppl will fold and that my hand will be best on the river.

00Snitch · #5 01-03-2007, 09:23 PM

you really should have bet that flop.

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By doing this am I giving up a small edge for the change to exploit a bigger edge later?

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you are passing up far too much value by not betting the flop as many, many worse hands will call you on this board.

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On the other hand many people may have folded on the flop if I had bet out

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anyone that you want to fold on the flop, wont. i.e. you probably want single hearts and gutshots to fold (because they would be making a mistake doing so in this big pot, is that correct reasoning?), but they obviously wont.

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I increase not only my pot equity but also increase the amount others people pay

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im not too sure about this, but i dont think waiting til the turn will increase your pot equity.

anyway, as played, i like the turn raise.

OziBattler · #6 01-03-2007, 09:25 PM

no reads?

yeah, bet the flop. see, you checked it and the MP1 bets and you are like wtf. you might still wtf even if you bet and get donked on the turn but it is a lesser wtf imho

sure there is a chance someone was trapping you on the flop but they dont know that you have 'just' TP without a heart. for all they know, you can have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

my motto with pokerstars limits below 0.5/1 would basically be that you just value bet your ass off. save your changeups for when you are shorthanded and have reads.

oh and limping AJo on the button with 5 limpers is acceptable also.

00Snitch · #7 01-03-2007, 09:34 PM

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oh and limping AJo on the button with 5 limpers is acceptable also

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i changed my mind on this one, ive been raising AJo after lots of limpers and from the blinds (with or without lots of limpers). where previously i would just limp/complete/check.

i dont have any good reasoning for this except that the book told me to. maybe im getting more comfortable post-flop. (although my wtsd and w$sd would dictate otherwise. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

anyone care to comment on OP's "waiting til the turn to increase pot equity" line? it sounds very foolish to me but i cant articulate my ideas very well.

my thoughts are something like: if your pot equity is the % of the pot you own and you are probably ahead, waiting to bet can only decrease your equity as it gives others a free chance to catch up. threfore, you are missing out on the money they would have put in trying to catch up if you had bet.

Poker Gestalt · #8 01-03-2007, 09:36 PM

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oh and limping AJo on the button with 5 limpers is acceptable also.

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acceptable or better in your opinion?

table is loose passive for the most part (the turn bettor was Tight aggressive passive).

does anyone know how i would go about calculating how my pot equity changes... say theoretically i could only lose to a heart?

00Snitch · #9 01-03-2007, 09:40 PM

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does anyone know how i would go about calculating how my pot equity changes

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sounds like you need www.pokerstove.com

unterfish · #10 01-03-2007, 09:49 PM

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My thought process on this hand was to wait until the turn and make sure than no heart came. Is this weak tight or am I correct to wait? By doing this am I giving up a small edge for the change to exploit a bigger edge later? I increase not only my pot equity but also increase the amount others people pay. On the other hand many people may have folded on the flop if I had bet out. What do you think?

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I dont even know. My intuition says its plainly wrong to await the turn.
You must let the people pay for their 4-flush draw.
I dont see why a raise here is different from a turn raise.
Actually people with a any good draw will call, those with a bad draw might fold. But it would be the same on the flop.
You MUST bet here. Because theres no difference between flop and turn.