2nd level of $5 sng

Lord_Strife · #1 12-29-2006, 05:28 AM

No reads as I have only got to the second level of play and also I was playing several tournaments at once. This interesting hand came up and I was wondering if there were opinions about it.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
8 players

Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls t20 (pot was t30), UTG+1 calls t20 (pot was t50), 4 folds, Hero calls t10 (pot was t70), BB checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t80, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets t20, Hero calls t20 (pot was t100), 2 folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t20, Hero raises to t80, UTG+1 raises to t160, Hero calls t80 (pot was t360).

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t440, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 is all-in t1320, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t1320 returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: t440

How often do you call on the flop? As played, do you fold the river?

I decided when I got three bet on the turn that I was folding on the river to a serious bet (assuming I didn't spike the nuts). Serious bet meaning obvious value bets (if he bet t250-t350) or if he overbet (aka like he did).

Two more questions: if the river doesn't pair and he doesn't go allin, what are you prepared to do on the river? How far are you willing to go? This could have been an awfully played set but I am not sold on that. It smelt like QJ from the start.

Thanks in advance [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

cprice2 · #2 12-29-2006, 05:51 AM

Why not call the all-in there? i don't understand. You have a straight. only JQ, a full house, or quad 8s beat you. Is the reraise enough reason to believe he has the boat?

Lord_Strife · #3 12-29-2006, 06:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not call the all-in there? i don't understand. You have a straight. only JQ, a full house, or quad 8s beat you. Is the reraise enough reason to believe he has the boat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple process of elimination based on the line he took to until the river.

1) Limped utg+1 after an utg limp in an eight handed game, possible hands for even the loosest opponent: any pp, any two big cards, any suited connectors, and most Ax combos.

2) Three players check to this player and he bets the minimum. This is the part that can be questioned about this play in the first place. #1 I could be drawing to a three outer to win if he had QJ, but a lot of hands were possible. JT, any set, small straight, all possible "slowplay" (min bet) types of hands. You could even include a lot of two pair combinations with that. However, at the time I decided that I was live with both of my draws and called the min bet with reasonable odds.

3) The turn was the most informational street because I checked to see what his action would be and he min bet again. Now, in my experiences, this has always been a serious monster or a very strong hand that is extremely concerned about what developed (aka the four straight on the board). I decided to put a check/raise in to let him know I had a hand and to put him to the test because at this point I put him on the the twopair/set hand not the straight and was raising for value because I expected a call because he was being stubborn. Instead of that happening, he put a very small and friendly three bet in. This sent alarms flying in my head. At this point I figured at the very WORST he has a set but that is extremely unlikely. Next base case scenario would be a single card same hand straight... aka finding out the hard way just to split whats in the middle. Last case scenario would be still what I feared from the start and that is the nut straight. I will go to my grave to say that these were the only options aside from a complete lack of understanding of the game (which he did not possess as I continued to watch him play, not that he was good, just that he certainly confirmed the previous statement).

and finally..

4) The river. Another tell that I've gathered over the years from playing is that when someone appears to be slow playing and makes a gross over bet on the river, they just always have it. The river was also interesting because the board paired, and as I said earlier I wasn't overly concerned about him having a set but you can't rule it out. At this point, I cannot even beat that.

What I'm saying is, allin for best case scenario being to split (which is roughly 2:1 against), is -EV

Anyone disagree with this analysis and thought process?

mmorpg · #4 12-29-2006, 06:47 AM

Stack sizes?

Flop: Calling min bet is fine
Turn: I would raise more (depending on stack sizes) but try and build the pot so you can go all in on river.
River: As played call

Lord_Strife · #5 12-29-2006, 07:02 AM

Stack sizes (I never noticed the converter I used didnt include stack sizes, weird)

Hero: Lord_Strife (1680 in chips)
Villian (1520 in chips)

Kibby · #6 12-29-2006, 09:46 AM

FYI- you have to change the setting on that converter.

outsider13 · #7 12-29-2006, 10:42 AM

I say you have to make that call. Unless you have some really good reads on this guy, he I would have him on A 8, or A J based on his first 2 bets, and more likely A 8 on his river bet.

If he had QJ, i think you have to take the chance to see it, but I would guess that he is just an aggrodonk that just tried to push you off a shared pot.

Sober · #8 12-29-2006, 11:07 AM

Ok, this is not the second level of play, Stars level 2 is 15/30. Just pointing that out, you may also want to make your headline clear of the hand situation rather than the buyin and gamestage alone. "$6 early straight, scary board" or something would be perfect.

As far as the hand goes, completing is ok with this hand. Calling the flop minbet is also fine, getting 5:1 on a ~4.5:1 draw.

I don't like checking in front when you catch your straight on the turn. Donks at the $6's don't understand what a checkraise means, so it's generally a useless move, and you really don't want to give a free card here. Raise it to about 80. As played, your reraise needs to be bigger, I like 140 or so.

On the river you should lead again, 250 or more, and call reaction.

You can't give your opponents so much credit at a $6. Unless you see him at every single one of your tables, and he's got a scary sharkscope, you must not lay this down. You have $6 players beat %95 of the time.

If he has QJ or a full house on you, big deal. Feel satisfied that he played his hand absolutely terribly, and you played it well. Playing it as poorly gets you nowhere.

MikeMcQ1 · #9 12-29-2006, 05:19 PM

Flop call is good.
I would lead the turn, but c/r more if you do. When he three bets you push (if you had built a bigger pot).
River is an absolute call.

Lord_Strife · #10 12-30-2006, 05:28 AM

So basically nobody is giving me credit here for villians line being a split *at best*, but most likely not?