overplayed?

bigjoet · #1 12-27-2006, 03:14 AM

6 handed 20/40 game at the Reno Peppermill (5 bet cap) on Christmas Eve...

ps. i'm transitioning back to live 9 handed games so i'm interested in what both the short handed forum and the full ring forum think...

preflop:
utg folds
UTG+1 (good TAG, aggro preflop, later raised with 48s, so definitely not ABC TAG, have not seen him out of line postflop) open raises...
Hero calls in cutoff with QJs (suits irrelevant)... my image is TAG tourist... only played a few hands and won every showdown...
Button (lagtard, calls raises w/ 57o, raises any 2, but has not 3 bet yet...) 3 bets...
sb/bb fold, utg+1 and hero calls...
(pot: 10.5 SB)

flop: QJx rainbow
utg+1 and hero check
button bets
utg+1 calls
hero check raises
button 3 bets
utg+1 4 bets
hero instantly 5 bet caps
everyone calls, the button openly asks for a K
(pot: 12.75 BB)

turn: K
utg+1 bets in raiser
hero/button calls
(pot: 15.75 BB)

river: T
utg+1/hero check, button enthusiastically bets
utg+1 calls, hero lays down enormous pot
(pot: 17.75 BB)

what do you guys think about the play on every street?
i definitely would not laydown the hand online in this enormous pot, but i suspect i was in 3rd place...

what would you do if utg+1 respects your game?
i think utg+1 respects my game because after the pot, he said i should know what he had because he knew what i had... his hand became more obvious later when i saw him play more...

Hands in white:
<font color="white">
utg+1: QQ
hero: QJs
button: AA
</font>

private joker · #2 12-27-2006, 03:36 AM

Fold preflop. QJ is not a good hand against a solid TAG opening in early position. And since there were no callers in between, your suitedness does you little good.

Flop and turn are standard, and the river is a pretty easy fold.

bigjoet · #3 12-27-2006, 03:46 AM

lol... i posted the same hand in m/h sh and the advice i got preflop was 3 bet...

private joker · #4 12-27-2006, 03:54 AM

3-betting is OK since it's 6-handed. In this spot I probably:

Fold: 60%
3-bet: 35%
Cold-call: 5%

Cold-calling anything 6-handed is normally unwise, especially against a TAG raising in EP.

bigjoet · #5 12-27-2006, 04:05 AM

well... button was very loose and i wanted him to come along... bb was loose too and i could see him call 1 more for nice 4 way action w/ bad cards... i can see 3 betting on button as superior play over 3 betting in cutoff...

Howard Beale · #6 12-27-2006, 07:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. QJ is not a good hand against a solid TAG opening in early position. And since there were no callers in between, your suitedness does you little good.

Flop and turn are standard, and the river is a pretty easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ folding pre-flop against UTG+1 as described but I would like to know why you think flop and turn are standard. OP is most likely ahead of the button but what is the UTG+1 hanging around with? IMO, when UTG+1 (who apparently should've noticed just as well as the OP that the button hasn't 3 bet yet) 4 bets the flop OP is in a lot of trouble. Both UTG+1 and button are representing big pairs. OP may consider that either of them don't have QQ or JJ because of what he holds and that he may be up against AA and KK but, again, OP has a lot of respect apparently for UTG+1's play and UTG+1 4 bet the flop when he must've known that button had a big pair and after OP had check-raised. There are plenty of players against whom I fold right there. Granted that OP doesn't know him intimately as a regular and may think he's still good but when that K hits the turn and UTG+1 bets out into all that prior action I'm done with the hand for sure. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere so involved as OP did but with that K on the turn that's it for me.

ssmallz · #7 12-27-2006, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree w/ folding pre-flop against UTG+1 as described but I would like to know why you think flop and turn are standard. OP is most likely ahead of the button but what is the UTG+1 hanging around with? IMO, when UTG+1 (who apparently should've noticed just as well as the OP that the button hasn't 3 bet yet) 4 bets the flop OP is in a lot of trouble. Both UTG+1 and button are representing big pairs. OP may consider that either of them don't have QQ or JJ because of what he holds and that he may be up against AA and KK but, again, OP has a lot of respect apparently for UTG+1's play and UTG+1 4 bet the flop when he must've known that button had a big pair and after OP had check-raised. There are plenty of players against whom I fold right there. Granted that OP doesn't know him intimately as a regular and may think he's still good but when that K hits the turn and UTG+1 bets out into all that prior action I'm done with the hand for sure. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere so involved as OP did but with that K on the turn that's it for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, the place to lay this hand down is on the turn, not the river.

Hero's 5 bet on the turn shows enormous strenth. Its safe for opponets to assume that their overpair isn't good w/out some help after the flop. UTG, described as a tag by op then bets into him when the K hits. W/an aggro button behind you who just called for a K, I'd be very afraid of getting raised and possibly 3 bet before it comes back to you again. However, if you were closing the action, I can see calling here as you will only have to pay 1 bb to see the river and 1 more to see sd.

private joker · #8 12-27-2006, 02:26 PM

I disagree with you guys. The pot is huge on the turn. If we have 4 outs to a boat that might win it, we have to call 1 BB and see a river. That the river makes a straight should make the river fold even easier, but I'd probably fold it if it was a brick.

The problem with folding the turn is the flop doesn't necessarily prove you're drawing dead on the turn. If you're against bottom set (possible hand for button) and a big overpair like AA, all 4 outs are clean. You're only drawing dead to KK and QQ. It's correct to peel one off on the turn for 1BB in a pot of 16BBs.

Howard Beale · #9 12-27-2006, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with you guys. The pot is huge on the turn. If we have 4 outs to a boat that might win it, we have to call 1 BB and see a river. That the river makes a straight should make the river fold even easier, but I'd probably fold it if it was a brick.

The problem with folding the turn is the flop doesn't necessarily prove you're drawing dead on the turn. If you're against bottom set (possible hand for button) and a big overpair like AA, all 4 outs are clean. You're only drawing dead to KK and QQ. It's correct to peel one off on the turn for 1BB in a pot of 16BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is fine as a technical analysis but I'm placing a greater weight on OP's detailed descriptions of his opponents.

Ps. If button has bottom set that takes care of all the Jacks and OP is drawing only to 2 Queens( [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) AND UTG+1 can only have AA for hitting one of them to win. I also don't think UTG+1 bets that turn w/ one pair.

Demmit! Edit again to add 'unless button's bottom set is the 'x' on the board' which isn't likely.

private joker · #10 12-27-2006, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Edit again to add 'unless button's bottom set is the 'x' on the board' which isn't likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom set HAS to be the x on the board. And why isn't it likely? He's described as a LAGtard. (That he hasn't 3-bet yet means nothing, as this is a live session so the sample size is too small to say whether or not he has a small pair).