AK vs. Tricky BB -- River Decision

[aK13]

I'm just messing around with poker for the first time in a long while, villain seems fairly loose-aggro-tricky from the couple orbits I've been here -- I'm still not sure how good he hand reads or how "thinking" he is.

Some folds, I pop A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO
Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop (4.5SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, I call.

Turn (3.25BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks, I bet, BB raises, I call. (Anyone 3pop here?)

River (7.25BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, I bet, BB raises

[jstill]

I play every street the same, i think u can fold to the river cr the chances he's taking this line with crap or he just called AQ or AJ in the bb then donked on 10 9 x into the pfr then cr'd both streets once the A hits ( could be A8 or A7 i guess) seems much much less likely than u being beat, particularly since it couldnt have been AJ or AQ with the fd.

i wouldnt 3bet that turn u lose worse hands and hes usually got better than a weak pair of As after his action here

[bobhalford]

I'd fold. He probably has 87.

[Carmine]

Why put yourself in these spots on the river against a player with this description especially given you don't have a good handle on his play.

As played I can't fold agaisnt this player on a board that draw heavy

[PokerSparky]

I definitely don't three-bet the turn.

River checkraise usually means pwnage, but I probably pay off against this villain.

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Why put yourself in these spots on the river against a player with this description especially given you don't have a good handle on his play.

As played I can't fold agaisnt this player on a board that draw heavy

[/ QUOTE ]

That first bit seems really results oriented. Not betting here would be pretty bad, in my opinion.

You must make this river call, one because you'll be good more often then you think, and two because you need to know what he has for future hands.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]


That first bit seems really results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have made the same comment had Hero stopped the action after BB checked the river.

I have been in that situation several times and learned to ask myself two questions before I act. #1 is there value in a bet and #2 can I comfortably fold(or call) to a C/R. If you can fold to a river C/R (when a brick falls ) how do you justify calling the turn C/R when the pot was 4BB smaller.

Yes I think we lose some value against some worse hands that would call a river bet, but it takes many calls from worse hands to make up for giving up this pot just once. Also balance out the lost bet on the river with when we call this C/R and lose that bet.

Checking through also gives me that added advantage of seeing his cards and a much better handle of his play.

[jstill]

Carmine,
i wont argue against ur whole point completely, but will start by saying there is an easy way to justify calling the turn cr when the pot is smaller and folding to the river cr.

on the turn he could likely make this play with worse As and altho i suspect we are beat we have on avg enuff pot equity against his range to call the bet and see the river. those times he has the str or set we are drawing dead but against two par hands we could have 3 5 or more outs with counterfeiting possibilities plus the possibility we are ahead, thats why we call the turn cr getting 6:1. who knows maybe calling the cr folding the river UI would be best but im not nearly expert enough to discern between these situations and the possibility of AJ AQ A7 or A8 or a turn semibluff or bluff make me showdown. As far as justifying folding to the river cr while i may not be right in doing it he has now shown even more strength which likely means it is not a hand that we beat which it could have been on the turn, and likely does not expect us to fold to a cr now that the pot is larger and we have gotten this far ( which is precisely why people do this with their good holdings), and there likely isnt any history with hero or metagame existing between him and villain for villain to think he will fold. As far as folding now there is no probable pot equity in question it is either 100% or 0 so its a matter or whether we are good 9:1 times and given the action i would say we are not here, not sure if i am right or not tho.

as far as betting the river after a turn check raiser cks the river I almost always bet with any strongish holding (TPGK or better, even when i thought i may have been beat on the turn) becuz a) its my natural reaction multitabling and i rarely get bitten by it from another ck raise and b) in my experience i would be giving up far too much value by not betting in those spots each time

on the other hand this hand it may not be correct as the times we pick up value from worse hands he cr'd the turn with and ck'd the river with ( there arent that many we can get value from he should have cr'd the turn with on the A?) may not make up for the times we as u said 1) put in a bet to be cr'd and fold the losing hand 2) put in 2 bets with a losing hand or 3) get cr'd bluffed twice and give up the whole pot. Mostly since some of his ck raising the turn worse hands cant call a river bet or he could be wussing out and ck calling a weak two pair.

in general though in my findings I think the time he cks and calls with a worse hand is much more frequent than the other 3 possibilities ( probably 4:1) and the times we get ck raised bluff and we fold is almost nonexistent (about the same as when he ck raise bluffs and we win 2 bets which is why i didnt include that in the pro side of the arguement) altho it is a devastating mistake of course but not a large enuff factor to pass up on such a common value betting spot even when combined with the other negatives.

[Transference]

Makes ya feel dirty when that happens doesnt it?

I'm going to put this out there and not defend it:

Checking behind on the river does not suck.

[MacGuyV]

3betting a turn screwplay with 1 pair is madness at any limit 10/20 or lower.
On the river I used to B/F here but now I bet/payoff even though I pride myself on not getting pozzed by these tard plays. To my surprise I have seen weaker Aces occasionally; and I do think there's some merit in this case for the highly criticized "see what he has" call. Then I rationalize by saying he would've won the same bets off me had he bet/3bet the turn [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]