75/150 bottom 2 baby flush draw weak low draw gutshot

[TStoneMBD]

heres a hand that confused me. UTG3 is really loose preflop, limping 5669 type of hands and [censored]. MP is also loose but not nearly as bad.

9 handed 75/150 o8 game at foxwoods. im in the sb with 2x3x4h6h.

utg3 limps, MP limps, i complete in the sb, bb checks.

flop is 23Q with 2 hearts

i check planning to checkraise if MP bets (??), bb checks, UTG3 bets, MP calls, i call, bb calls.

turn is a 7x

i bet (??), bb folds, UTG3 calls, MP calls.

river is a Jx

i check, MP bets, UTG3 calls, i fold (??)

i dont like my turn bet after rethinking the hand but im pretty confused on every street. for those that check the turn, assuming that someone bets and there isnt a call and i have the opportunity to raise to drive out 1 or 2 players behind me, do i take it?

[cero_z]

Hi TStone,

Yes, if you have a legit chance to get it HU on the turn, risk it. Ditto the flop. I don't mind you taking a card off on the flop, if you don't think you can get it HU often with a raise, but at that point, it's very close between calling and folding. On the turn, you should fold or raise; raise if you can get it HU quite a lot (1/2 the time or more, off the top of my head), otherwise fold. It costs too much to call down here with a bad hand both ways, if you're in a 3+ way pot. HU, you have an excellent chance of getting half.

[Buzz]

Stone - Fold on the flop. Your plan (to get heads-up with MP) was fine, but then when things didn't work out that way you do better not playing this mess. Four-six is not a good low and two pairs, deuces and treys plus a baby heart flush draw plus the gutshot is not a good high after this flop. Check/calling the flop is your first mistake.

UTG3's flop bet doesn't mean much of anything. I'm presuming MP is the weak link here and UTG3 could just be trying to get heads up with MP. If so, UTG3 could have a variety of nebulous flop fits, maybe a bad low and a heart draw.

I have no idea what BB is doing, but when he gets out on the turn, it doesn't matter much.

Your turn bet reads like you either
• (1) have made a low,
• (2) are making a delayed flop fit bet,
• (3) have a set of sevens, or
• (4) have two pairs, queens and sevens.

That's fine and deceptive, and you do eliminate BB with the bet.

There's something wrong with your record of the fourth betting round (river). How can MP be betting and then UTG3 be calling? (UTG3 acts first). Did you and UTG3 check, and then MP bet? (I'd guess that was it). Or possibly you have UTG3 and MP reversed on the fourth betting round.

At any rate, I think you should call on the river. In my humble opinion, folding to the river bet is your second mistake.

Buzz

[TStoneMBD]

yah sorry buzz, utg3 bet the river and mp called. cero, i think you misread some of the action.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
i check planning to checkraise if MP bets (??), bb checks, UTG3 bets, MP calls, i call, bb calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably go ahead and check-raise here if I thought it would give me a clearer picture of the field, or if I thought it would help me lay the hand cheaply later. A CR might thin the field, also. I don't think your hand is a complete waste--it has a little somthin' going for it both ways on a flop that has dinked the dry A2s and A3s. As you may be implying by your plan to CR MP, it would do better heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
i bet (??), bb folds, UTG3 calls, MP calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to get aggressive, a CR might be a little better here, but your bet drops BB and just gets calls from the other two.

[ QUOTE ]
i check, MP bets, UTG3 calls, i fold (??)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your check signifies no nut low and a pot for sale. MP has to call UTG3's bet with almost anything. There may be a solid or nut low that was made afraid of quartering by your 4th street bet, but from your descriptions I have to call the river.

[bodie]

Hi T-Stone,

I tend to agree with Buzz here in that there isn't really a very good fit with the flop - just enough to be tempting, but of the sort that will usually get you in trouble (in my opinion): the two pair are weak, the low is weak and the hearts are weak. If thinking clearly, I would have folded on the flop after the bet and call - however, if I made it as far as your bet on the turn (signifying a made low), I would have wanted to keep that going and bet out on the river (no one raised that turn bet). The hand played out rather weakly from everyone, so it's possible that you may have had at least half of it. You wrote,

"for those that check the turn, assuming that someone bets and there isnt a call and i have the opportunity to raise to drive out 1 or 2 players behind me, do i take it?"

The turn didn't really help your hand in what you were looking for: no heart, no A or 5 - so again it's that choice - if the above happened and you're planning on staying to the end, then a CR would be interesting to see if you can get the others out. Might as well, and it'll show you where you stand. As you said, UTG3 could have anything, and he was betting from the beginning. What did he have at showdown?

[TStoneMBD]

i dont remember what they both had but i would have gotten scooped.

[odomination]

don't call the turn if you're going to fold the river with a blank.

[J_V]

Very tough hand. I think you should avoid putting in lots of bets early for the following reasons:

You need to be heads up. If you go 3 way to a showdown you will likely get scooped, even if the board comes with a low and a high card or something - it will often come much worse.

But even if you can get it heads up, your hand doesn't fair that well either against most good hands here. Hands like A45 or A5Q all kind've wallop you.

If you could just take the hands though from the other players and play heads up against the best hand, it would definitely be +EV with the dead money, but in real life, to get it heads up with cost you multiple bets and still probably won't work. If you go 3 ways for multiple bets, you would be eating it hard.

Thus, call turn and fold most turns.


Edit: hearts add a little value but not enough to change my assumptions. Big reverse implied odds. Putting it in lots of bets when you aren't going to be doing that well even if you get it heads up is a recipe for disaster, you find yourself in a lot of small +EV spots when it gets heads up and way -EV when it doesn't.

[J_V]

Also, I call the river. Seems like you get half way more than often enough. I also think betting this river might not be awful, if you think you are unlikely to be raised.