Drawn out on river question

[mikever]

NL holdem. This situation came up yesterday, and comes up often enough that I wanted clarity on what to do. It's really a two-parter question.

I have JJ and hit set on flop with two diamonds. I bet flop and get called. Turn is blank and I bet it and get called. River brings diamond.

Here is the first part of my question, but it's not the main question. I typically bet here, maybe half the pot. My reason is that I don't want to draw a bluff by checking and face a tough decision, and I would call a half-pot bet anyway. I also try to bet enough so that a raise would almost certainly mean I am beat. So, the first question is, do you do something similar? Is my thinking right on this?

So, I make my bet on river, and then get raised. Should I fold to any raise, or am I priced into a call up to a certain amount, and what range am I priced into if the answer is yes?

[alphatmw]

you need to describe the flop so we know if theres any reasonable hand villain could have thats not a flush draw. c/f or c/c a small bet can't be as bad as you think it is.

[jjflash]

Also, we need to know what limit you were playing, what the guys history of play was, what kind of hand you put him on, how deep your stacks were. After you have answered all of this, we will probably have a few more questions. I am not being a smart azz, these are things we need to know to answer with any confidence and clarity.

[mikever]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not being a smart azz, these are things we need to know to answer with any confidence and clarity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you're not. I just thought there might be some general advice as to how to go about this scenario without needing the particulars of the hand.

I think I will post this on one of the strat forums where it might be more appropriate, and post more of the particulars of a hand. Thanks though.

[AaronBrown]

Your thinking is sound but, while it depends on the factors alphatmw and jjflash mentioned, it's seldom a good idea to bet into possible nuts. I appreciate your reasoning, but think about three cases if there is no pair, straight possibility or card higher than a Jack on the board:

(1) This was a bluff from the beginning, on garbage. The bluffer is pretty sure you don't have a flush, so you almost have to fold to a reraise. You make the bluff more attractive, not less. Of course, if you're going to call a reraise, you don't care, but then you'll lose a lot of money whenever someone hits a flush against you.

(2) The other player has a high pair, or lower set, or two pair. If you check, you probably get checked and win the pot. If you make a half pot bet, you probably either get a fold, so you get what you would have from a check, or a reraise. If you don't want the reraise, this leaves you worse off. Of course, there's the chance you get a call, but I don't think it outweighs the other outcomes.

(3) The other player has the flush, especially the nut flush. He's going to reraise and you'll fold losing more than if you hadn't made the half-pot bet.

There are some players in some circumstances where this play could be good, but it's generally not sound.

With a pair on board, or card higher than a Jack, or straight possibility that he could have been going for; then the half pot bet is more attractive. With a pair, the bet probably gets a call from the flush and a fold from weaker hands, so you end up in the same position but avoid a tough decision. With a card higher than the Jack or a straight possibility, you're probably going to call a reraise, and you want the pot bigger rather than smaller. You'll lose a lot to the flush, but win more from bluffs and high two pairs.

[fungaimike56]

Yes, you are in a spot and need answers BUT I can't help but observe you are operating 'backwards' here. You're describing heads-up play right? You flop a set. You can somewhat reasonably put your opponent on a flush draw. Proceed correctly from here and you can answer your own questions on the river. Your flop bet and turn bet were offering him odds. So did you price your opponent in or out of the hand with your bets on the flop and turn? If you made him overpay his flush draw odds on the flop and turn you have played correctly...he has overpayed to pursue his draw. You're still put to the test on the river but have played correctly. Your assessment of his probable hand dictates your river response--check/call, check/fold being your most likely choices...check/call if he played badly and overpaid, check/fold if he played 'correctly' by calling your underbets.

Manipulating the size of the pot is huge in NL. Of course, so is knowing your opponent. You really didn't supply much information here.

[welzer777]

From your description you must have put him on the flush draw, correct? If this assumption is true then it is up to you to price him out of the pot if in fact you are satisfied with winning a "small" pot. If you are unwilling to do this my advice would be to play a limit game, thereby, greatly minimizing your risk to potential flush draws. Now before you get offended let me qualify! Assuming, his flush hits approximately 32% of the time in this given scenario you will "clean up" in the long run. Where I come from we call these type of "drawers" fish and we welcome them. You see, his odds are even less due to the fact that you are also drawing to a full which beats his flush(straight flush withstanding of course)!! Think long run and the answer should be obvious. Also, make a bigger bet and "make them pay."

[Ryanb9]

I think that in the situation where you bet out on river and are raised... your hand is now a bluff catcher. I mean your opp is saying "I have a flush" so now have one task: Deciding if you believe him or not.

However, If you seem to be running into this spot a lot... I think their is a counter to it. Lets say you have a flush draw... you bet out the same way you would w/your set on the flop / turn, then check the river when you make your flush. If you do this and c/r river and he calls... forcing you to showdown your play w/the flush draw, I think that it would substacially reduce your opp's chances of bluffing the river on a hand like the one you posted. Views / oppinions on this?