Palming Chips

[vmacosta]

I played cards at a CA casino recently. We were playing headsup limit holdem. I was tipping the dealers after their round was up which is pretty standard for me in very shorthanded games.

I was in the 8 seat and had my soon-to-be-tip out away from my stack so that I wouldn't forget. It was a $5 chip on the felt in the 9/10ish seat area. My fleece hat was also on the felt, between the chip and the dealer.

A very standard hand came up. I opened on the button and either won it right there or with a bet on the flop (can't remember). I removed the $1 chip I had been using to protect my cards and pushed my cards a few inches closer to the dealer as he was pushing me the small pot. He then took my cards and in one fell swoop, my $5 chip as well which he smoothly deposited in his jacket pocket.

I made a double take and after making sure the $5 chip was gone confronted him, "you just took my chip!". He stared at me with an intimidating look. I repeated myself, exasperated. He then reached into his pocket and handed the chip back. He mumbled something about how he wasnt paying attention and took it along with the cards. He continued to stare at me in an intimidating fashion. I refused to continue playing until he left. A few minutes later the shift manager stopped by and I told him what had happened. He handled himself very professionally and later told me he had checked the cameras and couldn't find proof either way. I asked him if the dealer had thought the chip was his tip and he said no.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this, but I guess it was pretty traumatic for me. Before the ban, I was mostly an online player and when I did play live nothing like this ever came up. Does anybody have any words of wisdom for me? Should I disclose the cardroom or the dealer's name? $5 is not a lot of money, particularly in relation to the size game we were playing in--am I just making a big deal out of nothing?

[RR]

Leaving a chip forward can be a little bit of a free roll for the dealer if he is so inclined. He can take it and if you ask for it back he can claim he thought it was his tip. I have seen dealers take the blinds if someone wins the pot just before his blind. Usually if a dealer is going to snatch chips he will be taking them out of the pot.

[vmacosta]

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Leaving a chip forward can be a little bit of a free roll for the dealer if he is so inclined. He can take it and if you ask for it back he can claim he thought it was his tip.

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RR, I specifically told him I'd tip him after the round was up (and it wasn't up for another 5 min). Plus this was not his story--in fact, he didn't really have a legitimate story.

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I have seen dealers take the blinds if someone wins the pot just before his blind. Usually if a dealer is going to snatch chips he will be taking them out of the pot.

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I find this very scary. I'm thinking of all the times when I thought I posted the blind early (particularly while stacking a freshly pushed pot) and then when I looked up it wasn't there. Sometimes I wonder aloud, but usually I assume I just forgot and repost it.

Another question,
I play at this place on a semi-regular basis...what should I do next time this guy deals at my table? What about my friends' tables?

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
I played cards at a CA casino recently.

...

Should I disclose the cardroom or the dealer's name? $5 is not a lot of money, particularly in relation to the size game we were playing in--am I just making a big deal out of nothing?

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It is extremely unlikely that I will ever play in a CA casino, but I think the name of the dealer should be posted. I think behaviour like that is despicable, especially when the rake is being paid for a fair game to be dealt.

[psandman]

I can easily see how a dealer could mistake your chip for a tip based on your description of its placement.

I don't know how the Manager could tell you the dealer didn't think the chip was a tip. If the dealer is going to tell the floor that he gave the chip back, but didn't think it was a tip, why would the floor even look at the camera?

Last night i had the opposite thing happen had a player snatch my tip.

[soko]

I'd say there is at least some bit of funny business going on here, don't legitimate dealers pound the chips a few times to let the players know he is taking money off the table?

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this very scary. I'm thinking of all the times when I thought I posted the blind early (particularly while stacking a freshly pushed pot) and then when I looked up it wasn't there. Sometimes I wonder aloud, but usually I assume I just forgot and repost it.

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Don't post your blind until the dealer is done pushing the pot and taking up the cards, and when you do post it, post it by placing it where it belongs. Some players like to fling their chips around and this can be more easily confused for a tip, when it lands further out then a blind should be.

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I play at this place on a semi-regular basis...what should I do next time this guy deals at my table?

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If you are really convinced that this dealer was stealing from you then either don't play there or get up and walk when the dealer comes in (after counting your chips).

[FireStorm]

1) Technically this would not really be considered "palming" chips. Palming chips is more accurately used to descriube players going south during the course of a cash game session. It could also be used to describe dealers or other players ifting chips directly out of the pot, or if possible, someone else's stack, covertly. Here, there is a bit of confusion, so this wouldn't really be construed as a palming incident.

2) Your placement of the chip could be seen as a tip and thus not much can come of your complaint. Dealer will simply claim that it's a tip or he thought it was intended for him or he thought it was by mistake, or whatever, etc, you aren't going to see any action taken over this. Unfortunate situation, but you have to deal with it. If the camera shows inconclusive evidence, there's not much left that can happen.

3) You may want to get experience in different live venues in order to get used to casinos, if you are describing this as a "traumatic" experience. This comment is not meant to be offensive, but if this is causing you this big of a problem, perhaps you want to play elsewhere with a less serious atmosphere.

4) This is off topic so you don't have to answer, but, you said you're playing a heads up, Limit Hold Em cash game in a casino? What Limits? If these are any mid limits, I would tihnk this is a poor situation for you to be in, between the rake and tips. You are probably playing at a winrate way too low to waste your time unless you are insanely better than your opponent and know it.

5) Don't post anyone's name. Ignore it, move on, play your sessions without worry. I doubt you will be at this guy's table often again or have another incident.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I can easily see how a dealer could mistake your chip for a tip based on your description of its placement.


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Me too, but it does appear there was some ambiguity. I think in this case the onus is on the dealer to make sure. Once gone, the dealer's reputation for integrity cannot easily be restored, so it behooves an honest dealer to:

<ul type="square">[*]Ask the player, "Is that for me?" then ask him to clearly push it toward him.[*]As already stated, follow the time-honored procedure of knocking the chip on the rack[/list]
I recognize that you're a pro and I'm not, but I'm a little surprised if you don't endorse my general philosophical outlook here. Although as a player I take very seriously my own burden to protect my own reputation, only the dealer can protect his.

And really, what reason is there not to whack the chip on the rack, except as someone said to freeroll? A dealer who freerolls on issues of integrity isn't a dealer I want in my games.

[RR]

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As already stated, follow the time-honored procedure of knocking the chip on the rack

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Since there are a number of places that have written procedures for the dealer to hit the rack with the chip I won't say what I think of this practice.