Should I have laid this down?

[greyhawke54]

I am fairly sure that I am correct in calling this to 7th here, and folding when I dont get there. I dont think there is much different that I could have done here. Comments?

b]Razz[/b] ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (13.30 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

5th Street - (12.65 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (15.65 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (18.65 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (20.65 BB)

[The Worm]

I am learning Razz too and I still suck, but I dont see how J lo can win here.

[greyhawke54]

I had 4 card 6 on 4th and figured to be drawing as good as my opponent. I figure that I had 3 dueces, 2 fives, 2 sevens, and 1 8. I would prefer to be more live. I figure seat 2 for a made 8 on 5th. His draw to better is most likely the same as mine. I think that I am correct to draw here due to the size of the pot. I have fold if I do not make at least an 8 low on the river. Which i did not so I folded.

He did have the same 4 card 6 as I did on 4th street.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is much different that I could have done here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanna bet? This hand sucks starting on 3rd street. Did you look to see how live your hand is? Two 7's, a 5 and a duce are all dead, its not going to be easy to catch perfect on 4th street vs the villain's 3, keep in mind he also has 3 babies in his hand which further reduce the range of good cards. Calling is slightly better than folding because it allows you to build a big pot at the expense of hand equity but raising to isolate is horrible because your not drawing clean. Of course getting re-raised here sucks... and of course you got to feel that sucking experience by having the 7 call 2 bets cold and you still get re-raised by the villain!

4th street is 100% total spew. if you cannot sew why after my critical analysis of 3rd street then you need to quit while your ahead. I see how you tried to shut out the (xx)75 but its plain as day that he is not going to fold , he is capable of calling 3 bets cold with his hand which means its very possible he is also drawing cleaner than you, further reducing your range of possible outs, and once again another out is now dead. Woops... this is going to be a bloodbath isn't it?

I can find a fold on 5th street when I am playing well.

On 6th street seat 2 is announcing to the field that he can beat seat 6 and probably any draw that the hero might be on. Alarms were going off 2 streets earlier, for the love of god fold!

7th street - the only street you played correctly. Congratulations, you found the fold button! You earn a gold star after all [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] But no recess for you young man till you do your homework, please revisit Theory of Poker's hand reading section, and Sklansky on Poker's hand example section as well. Good luck!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

He did have the same 4 card 6 as I did on 4th street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not cool... don't tell us your opponents hand until you get enough responses or our analysis might become biased. Luckily i didn't read this post until after I ripped you to shreds in the prior post [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[adanthar]

I'm not sure about fifth (it's probably marginal), but the pot is far too huge to fold sixth for one bet. C'mon, I draw here knowing I have 2 outs, much less four or five.

Of course you made it this large in the first place, heh.

[ QUOTE ]
I had 4 card 6 on 4th and figured to be drawing as good as my opponent. I figure that I had 3 dueces, 2 fives, 2 sevens, and 1 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

ps: this isn't how you calculate outs in razz. think buried hole cards.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about fifth (it's probably marginal), but the pot is far too huge to fold sixth for one bet. C'mon, I draw here knowing I have 2 outs, much less four or five.

[/ QUOTE ]

I intentionally ignored the pot size because the hero put himself in this situation by spewing chips all over the place, but I disagree about one thing... I am not calling with 2 outs on 6th street. 4 outs on 5th street and I am calling, 3 outs on 6th street and I can still call, but not 2 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[greyhawke54]

I thank you for your candid review. I am still fairly new to razz. Apparently I have a good bit more work to do in this game. My thought was that I may be behind seat 2 but not very far. My reraise on 3rd was to try and thin the field or at least make the 7's make a bigger mistake. When I catch the ace on 4th I figure that I have a 4 card 64. I thought that I should be reraising to either thin the field or have them make a bigger mistake, I also thought that by raising I would find out if seat 2 paired the ace or not. After running some situations on twodimes I understand why I was wrong here.

So would it have been better to just call the completion on 3rd street? What then on 4th when I catch good the seat 4 also catches good. At the time I felt that reraising would give me both information on whether or not seat 2 paired and to either thin the field or get more money in with the better hand. Would this have been correct if my hand was more live? As the situation was just a call is correct on 4th then? I see now that my hand was not as strong as I first thought. On 5th then I should have folded when I caught bad and both my opponents caught good.

Thank you for your brutal honesty here this has really made me analyze the hand much more deeply. I appreciate yours and the many others on this boards advice.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
At the time I felt that reraising would give me both information on whether or not seat 2 paired

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets make a deal. If you ever admit raising for information again, then I will put you on ignore and never respond to a Razz post of yours. As long as you never raise for information again then I'll happily help you, complete with harsh criticism at times to help point you in the right way.

Raising for information is the single most misused phrase IMHO in the game of poker, just avoid doing it and avoid saying it and you will be much better off! I call raising for information spewing chips, think about it - once you get the information you want, what are you going to do what that information?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[greyhawke54]

When I said that I was raising for information that was my thought process at the time. That is why I said it. I am serious about improving my game. That is why I post what I am thinking when playing the hand. To get feedback and/or critisim of said thought process. Which I thank you for providing. I realize that if I am to improve this is what must happen. Please be patient with me and please, please do not ignore me. I truly appreciate your comments and want them in the future. Thank you.